Good on you. There are a lot of good old fashioned community values espoused in a church family, that is missing from modern society and it’s me,me,me / oneupmanship / “I’m alright Jack” mentality. In our church and the others I’ve attended people rally round in times of need, regardless of who you are or how long you have been a member of that church. Exposing cadets to these is something to be encouraged.
We seem to have a lot on this forum of what I would call God allergic or paranoid that being around a religious community will bring them out in a rash or something.
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You’re not too worried about keeping cadet numbers up then? ;)[/quote]
I understand where you’re coming from, but I have confidence in my current cadet group that attending a short service once every few weeks would not be a problem. It gets the corps and my squadron in the public eye and gains a community involvement - our church is packed every week. If it does garner an interest in Christianity then so be it. If not, then they have made an informed decision. Can’t lose really. And no one is forced to go. I’ll let you know how it goes - either way.
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Good on you. There are a lot of good old fashioned community values espoused in a church family, that is missing from modern society and it’s me,me,me / oneupmanship / “I’m alright Jack” mentality. In our church and the others I’ve attended people rally round in times of need, regardless of who you are or how long you have been a member of that church. Exposing cadets to these is something to be encouraged.
We seem to have a lot on this forum of what I would call God allergic or paranoid that being around a religious community will bring them out in a rash or something.[/quote]
Would you regularly hold a parade night in a mosque or temple every few weeks?
Would you regularly hold a parade night in a mosque or temple every few weeks?[/quote]
Good idea. In the interests of the diverse backgrounds, plus the basic curiosity of younger people, I’ll explore other religions willingness to let us attend.
Good on you. There are a lot of good old fashioned community values espoused in a church family, that is missing from modern society and it’s me,me,me / oneupmanship / “I’m alright Jack” mentality. In our church and the others I’ve attended people rally round in times of need, regardless of who you are or how long you have been a member of that church. Exposing cadets to these is something to be encouraged.
We seem to have a lot on this forum of what I would call God allergic or paranoid that being around a religious community will bring them out in a rash or something.[/quote]
Its very disappointing to read that several people here don’t think that values of the ACO good enough for young people today.
Perhaps someone could enlighten me as to exactly which positive values are unique to Christianity and cannot be found elsewhere (in no other religion, in no law, in no other ethical movement, group or community).
Perhaps his particular squadron is morally derelict.
Personally, I see the ATC as a religion in its own right 
“Its very disappointing to read that several people here don’t think that values of the ACO good enough for young people today.
Perhaps someone could enlighten me as to exactly which positive values are unique to Christianity and cannot be found elsewhere (in no other religion, in no law, in no other ethical movement, group or community). “
“Perhaps his particular squadron is morally derelict
Personally, I see the ATC as a religion in its own right ”
Ok. Where to start.
Hopefully I haven’t given the impression that any interaction with the Christian Church is somehow a better answer to all our problems than anything else.
I simply believe it provides a moral and ethical code of conduct based around our admission that despite our best efforts, Man has made a hash of most things if left to his/her own devices. Just read the papers and see…
The values of the ACO are sound. They are a reflection of the ages old principles of respect, love, and self control. Incidentally, a feature throughout the Bible.
I can’t find anything on here that claims Christianity is better than other religions – I think that’s what you mean by your question regarding some kind of uniqueness or perceived arrogance of Christians. There are some around though!
I know that I am and continue to be “morally derelict.” as you put it. None of us can claim that we are totally innocent of poor behaviour at some point in our lives. We all carry the ability to knowingly act in a less than adult way from time to time.
Christianity has brought this home to me, and believe me, its harder being a Christian than not.
If any squadron is morally derelict, then maybe a greater knowledge and application of more Christian values may be the answer. Or, as I think others might have suggested we can enforce the rules of the ACO through “quasi-military “means and hope for the best.
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I don’t doubt it - it is incredibly easy not being one 
I think that most religions on a very basic level teach ‘Be nice to each other as much as possible and stand up for what’s right’ which is a good thing and I really, really can’t stand Richard Dawkins and other ‘militant atheists’.
On the other hand, I’m always a bit annoyed when I attend a Remembrance service or similar and the chief God-bod spends the sermon telling me about Jesus. My reaction is always: “I’m not really here for that. Don’t you have every other Sunday of the year for it?”
I’ve also found (and I imagine other people’s experience will vary - or at least I hope so) that on the occasions myself or others could genuinely have benefitted from the support or presence of the padre they were either conspicuous by their absence or visible only as a large cloud of dust on the horizon.
[quote=“blueforyou” post=8531]“Ok. Where to start.
Hopefully I haven’t given the impression that any interaction with the Christian Church is somehow a better answer to all our problems than anything else.
I simply believe it provides a moral and ethical code of conduct based around our admission that despite our best efforts, Man has made a hash of most things if left to his/her own devices. Just read the papers and see…
The values of the ACO are sound. They are a reflection of the ages old principles of respect, love, and self control. Incidentally, a feature throughout the Bible.
I can’t find anything on here that claims Christianity is better than other religions – I think that’s what you mean by your question regarding some kind of uniqueness or perceived arrogance of Christians. There are some around though!
I know that I am and continue to be “morally derelict.” as you put it. None of us can claim that we are totally innocent of poor behaviour at some point in our lives. We all carry the ability to knowingly act in a less than adult way from time to time.
Christianity has brought this home to me, and believe me, its harder being a Christian than not.
If any squadron is morally derelict, then maybe a greater knowledge and application of more Christian values may be the answer. Or, as I think others might have suggested we can enforce the rules of the ACO through “quasi-military “means and hope for the best.[/quote]
The way I am reading your posts you are giving the impression that you think that Christianity/going to church is the answer. Though you don’t say it is superior to other religions you keep coming back to the benefit of cadets learning Christian values. So you implies that Christian Values are either superior or for some other reason the values of choice.
Christianity might great for you, no-one is trying to take away your right to select your religion but what you and several others on here are talking about is actively encouraging cadet participation in Christianity by looking to increase Church attendance by cadets and the application of ‘Christian values’.
This is inappropriate and wrong.
I have already asked why Christian Values are to be promoted above all others.
The new Cadet code of conduct includes the following points which I believe are relevant here
all cadets are required to:
• Set an example they would wish others to follow and treat everyone with equal respect and dignity.
• Respect and be sensitive to individual beliefs, faiths and religions.
• Respect each others’ rights to privacy.
• Not make fun of anyone else because of their colour, race, religion, abilities or disabilities
• Show understanding and sensitivity to others.
During their time in the ATC, cadets must never
• Promote their own religious, political ideals or beliefs to anyone
I appreciate the code of conduct is set out for cadets
However I would strongly question the ethicacy of anyone’s intention to, whilst in their position of power, as a staff member with the ACO to use that power to promote their particular religion and encourage Cadets into that religion both by adding church services to the cadets parade and event timetables and by the public promotion and active encouragement to the particular values of that religion.
I seriously wonder how many cadets would, if given the chance, go to church. By chance, I do not mean forced to go as part of a parade or a squadron evening.
I am all for a member of the community coming to the squadron and invoking discussion of ethics, morals, big news stories and getting cadets to think about others. This could easily be a christian padre, an imam, a teacher from a local school even!
What I am 100% against is adult staff assuming that anyone NEEDS religion in their lives to make them a better person, or assuming that we should adhere to Christian values simply because they themselves are Christian.
IMO we should be a completely secular nation. We should remove the antiquated rights of religious officials to sit in the Lords, we should not have faith schools, primary schools should not be a CofE school singing hymns every morning and requiring someone to be a certain religion to become a member of an organisation should be illegal.
Personal practices should be fine and people should be allowed to hold whichever beliefs they like. They should not, however, be allowed to have access to vulnerable people (I.E. children) and have an opportunity to brainwash them into believing their own personal values.
Sorry if this sounds radical but I feel quite strongly on the issue.
In fact, I’m going to conduct a poll on my own squadron website and see if given the choice who would not go to church.
i think the point blueforyopu is trying to get across is Christian values can be adhered to by simply living our normal lives, not killing, not stealing, respecting other etc etc etc
however the use of “a” in “a Christian” is something different, one can be Christian in their behaviour (consciously or not) without being a Christian, if that makes sense?
for example a Jew could be described as “being Christian” as the values between the two religiions are very closely matched and thus a Jew could be mistaken for being a Christian
i believe what Pamela is saying is what is said in Church, dictated by the Bible, or considered absolute by Christians in terms of value that is unique to Christianity?
there are no values to be “scared of” in Christianity as it is very much what we have as common law, common sense and good decency…it is simply branded in religion in this case
the values of the ACO and Christianity are very similiar, if not match so how can one refute the acceptance of Christian values when they differ little to those of the ACO and common law?
NB - i am not being ignorant to other peoples view, i can appreciate the argument on belief, and have i am not digging at non-believers. note i have discussed religiuos belief
edit: an after thought. it seems easy rightly or wrongly to label common law/sence “values” as Christian…what other label coudl be used however?
Lord Jeremy Clarkson uses the term “Christian motoring” as it is the most suitable label to use to describe a style of driving…is the use of “Christian values” no different?
and i susepct it is the instant link to relgion which is scaring/angering people.
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i’m confused by this, surely they have the “chance” every Sunday?? who is stopping them attend and thus not offering them the “chance”?
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i’m confused by this, surely they have the “chance” every Sunday?? who is stopping them attend and thus not offering them the “chance”?[/quote]
Sorry, I meant that outside of activities organised by the ACO, who would continue to go to church.
i suspect those that already do.
we have a handful, no more than half dozen i know who are regular churcg goers, of a Sqn of ~40…so 10-12%? which is inline with the National average (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_attendance)
I would not be surprised if the only time a Cadets enters Church (other than Weddings, funerals/other family event) is with the ACO
i would certainly however be surprised if any Cadet attends Church reguarly having attended Church through the ACO
as you rightly point out, it is a factor of upbringing which leads to “Children” attending church
No what I am trying to say is that I see no reasonable justification from those who want to impose Christian values on Cadets.
I see no superiority in Christian Values, though I welcome anyone who knows better to advise me on what these might be.
[quote=“steve679” post=8537] simply living our normal lives, not killing, not stealing, respecting other etc [/quote] is not unique to Christianity, most countries laws, most ethical schools of thinking and most religions set out fairly similar rules and best practice guides.
So I see no reason to promote Christian Values and I see no problem with ACO values as they stand.
I find it hard to take “Religious Values” seriously. People pick and choose the ones they want to follow. The “holy” books are filled with contradiction. Anyone can pick a bible verse to make a point…like this
Deuteronomy 21:18-21
"If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, “This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard.” 21 Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death."
I’d go as far as to assume that nobody on this board believes the above should be carried out and it isn’t in their value system. I picked an OTT verse to make a point but the facts remain, it’s still in the book. Now how, as a person responsible for children, justify taking children to a place that worships this book?
Religion can’t be fact checked. There’s no evidence to prove its validity and the only reason the ATC entertains it is history and tradition. It’s so open to interpretations (as my quote is there to demonstrate), people already have their values and use the book as a means of “proving” they are correct. Christian values are a myth, people have their own values.
As this and other threads have shown. Religion as a subject IS imflamatory and for that reason alone has no place in the ATC.
I find it slightly offensive that organisations which for the most part share my morality and who ask their members to behave in a way which is in line with my own personal moral code feel the need to claim this behaviour as their own and subsequently tainting me by association.
There is one part of my moral code which differs radically from that used by most religions though: I would never attempt to indoctrinate a child into my personal belief system but would allow them to weigh up the evidence and make their own decision on the matter.
[quote=“Pamela” post=8541]
So I see no reason to promote Christian Values and I see no problem with ACO values as they stand.[/quote]
but are they not one of the same??
again i am in the camp that pushing religion is not a good thing, so i do agree with the comment of promoting these values as a relgious act
but the label of values as Chritian does not make them religious
can a Jew, Muslim, atheist be descrived as being a “Christian motorist”??? yes as it is simply a label to help describe something, it does in no way indicate their preference if any towards Christianity
if i heard pEp (who we can agree is not a Christian) had helped his elderly neighbour with some gardening or visit the local convenience store to pick up some groceries, i could justifiably say it is “very Christian of him” but there is nothing to ever suggest pEp has ever beem or is likely to be a Christian.
the label of “Christian” given is unforgiving links to religion instantly seems to upset people without faith or active dislike of faith when there shouldnt be…
if we changed the label to “British” it dramatically changes the tone of what is being said yet is esstentially the same
The only thing I would say about the ‘well look at this awful guote from the bible/etc’ angle, is that, while every religion has fundamentalists who insist that the texts must be taken literally and at face value, most main stream religious beliefs regard their holy texts as mutable and open to interpretation. It was an Islamic philosopher and linguist who suggested that becoming shaheed guaranteed you raisins rather than virgins, for example.
I don’t think you can have it both ways: arguing that ‘religious people’ are rigid fundamentalists who won’t consider different view points on their beliefs, then arguing that they don’t stick to what’s in their holy books.
Very few religions ‘worship’ their texts, although many revere them as the ‘revealed word’ or similar. Edit to add: the CofE, being Protestant, definitely wouldn’t be ‘worshiping’ the Bible, although it’s not something that happens in other branches of Christianity as far as I’m aware. You could make an argument about Sikhs, although I’d say they regard their holy book as a Guru (hence the name Guru Granth Sahib) and so don’t actually worship it any more than Catholics worship the Pope.