Rank inequality (ATC camps etc)

[Foenix]

Hello.

I’m simply making a post about a few experiences I had at camp and a few experiences I heard from other cadets. The main point is I couldn’t care less about what rank my fellows are up to this point.

Let me introduce my case on a week-long camp this summer. First I would like to say that I am not personally offended by the attitude I been faced at the past two camps I been on, I am simply making a point about how squadrons differ from each other in each possible case and their attitudes to each other.

Ok so starting with the last camp I been on (week long) I had been teased for “still being a corporal” after 4 years of service. Yes it wasn’t nice to hear that but I ignored it as I know length of service has none to little effect to get promoted. After discovering the services and experiences of other cadets I found out that almost every Nco has been in the ATC for 2 - 1 year.

The reason I was teased is that I was supposedly “so bad that it took me so long” and I “had to be promoted”. At this point I admit it was annoying as it was unfair and untrue. My squadron runs differently. Usually no one gets promoted before least 3 years of service and they need to be excellent to rise up the ranks. Basically the rank structure is very serious and corporal is a hard rank to attain, lots of effort years of service and guaranteed respect.

Thats not the case with other squadrons I met.

I am satisfied with our squadrons rank system as it filters out the best to be role models. Its great until I go to camp and im teased for being “too bad” etc. as their squadron rank system supposedly is easy. Basically of what I found out these people get corporal after a few months, no experience only based that they conpleted a training, what Im saying is that rank is too easy to attain.

Again no problem how other squadrons are run as its not my buisness nor I go to them. Camps. In the camp I been in rank was treated seriously. Basically I was the same rank as people who were just messing around, not even knowing half of drill and no experience. Couldnt even tell them thats not the right thing because Im a “corporal”. I was bossed around by higher ranks that have equal experience to mine yet I was humiliated by them.

Well my response was “I’m sorry that my squadron runs differently”. My personal opinion is that in some squadrons rank is easy to attain in constrast to some that are almost work like the real RAF. We go to camps togeather, rank structure series and youre being told to do and laughed on by people that would still be almost junior cadets at my squadron, it is trust me annoying. Theres nothing wrong in not being promoted and time of service has nothing to do with it. Its about experience and the attitude of some. Some tried hard to earn that rank and theire being bossed around by someone who barely done anything, doesnt understand the rules and is still being promoted just because they completed their first class booklet.

I am expressing my opinion based of what I experienced, I do not want to offend anyone that think otherwise I simply want to make a point. The ATC (in my opinion) at the moment is a very divided organisation, where each squadron runs on their own rules (in some cases even different drill) of what I celebrate (differance, style and culture) up to a point where everyone gets mixed up and there is no common definition of a rank structure.

Camps expect rank structure to work, but rank isnt defined. Its just like mixing up completely different military forces (British army and the japanease air force) to work exactly based on rank where rank means different to each unit. I may not be right at this point as they may work good together (Im not a military expert) but i hope you get my point.

I conclude that each squadron should have their unique styles and unite under the same ATC banner, with a defined rank structure that is taught the same all over Great Britain.

I hope you understand and I have no problem if you do not agree with me.

[Nucleotide]

I imagine you’ve got a lot of 1-2 year service Cdt Cpls due to COVID meaning the majority of the NCOs pre-COVID have aged out/left.

I took 2 1/2 years to make Cpl (was about 15) and left as a FS in 2016.

I would say you weren’t promoted slower than usual, these others have been promoted quite quickly.

[cdt1]

If you want my take, you’re going to be alot better off in the long term than people premoted quicker. I took 3 years to get corporal (which was fairly quick for my squadron at the time), and left as a CWO with multiple NGB quals, managed the squadrons greens activities, delivered courses and helped instructing at wing and region. Not trying to big myself up, I still had/have flaws and there’s always room for self development, but I wouldn’t have been able to become a ‘high flyer’ without what I learnt through my time at the lower levels.

Saying that, you’re not higher than other corporals or SNCOs, the rank system is quite universal (even if premotion matrixes differ squadron to squadron), but you may well be more experienced than your peers and hopefully will go far!

I’m sorry to hear that people were teasing you. There’s no space in this organisation for bullying on any level and I hope that it was reported to a staff member. As NCOs there will be times where more senior ranks get things wrong (I’ll be the first to admit that I’m far from always right… But neither is anyone else!) There’s very much a way to guide people more senior in rank than you to your way of thinking, make suggestions in private not orders, however if they tried to humiliate you for it that was certainly out of line.

TLDR: cadet sergeants still hold authority even if you are just as experienced, the rank structure is important, but there will come a point where you are in their shoes or higher so keep up the hard work!

[daws1159]

I would say that your Squadron is the outlier here, between 2 and 2.5 years is probably the average in my experience, at 4 years I would certainly expect my NCO’s to be looking at Sergeant.

If you consider that the longest Cadet “career” is 8 years around 2 years at each rank is probably the target to be aiming for. Certainly my potential CWO’s I wanted to be FS before or on their 18th birthday, otherwise you end up only getting 1 year or less as a CWO.

Unfortunately some OC’s get a bit carried away with rigid structures and requirements, I knew a unit near me where the OC would only have 1 CWO and 2 FS no matter how many good quality candidates he had. As such he kept losing really good Sergeants to neighbouring units where they could be promoted.

Time in the organisation really doesn’t matter, you might’ve been a Cadet for 6 years and have a Master Cadet badge, that doesn’t automatically make you a better NCO than the Cadet with 2 years service and a leading badge.

As for a set system where we change everyone’s rank for Camp how would you expect that to work? Do we take the FS who does a perfectly good job on their Squadron and demote them to Corporal because they are younger than you think they should be?

[Chief_Tech]

@Foenix

expect rank structure to work, but rank isnt defined. Its just like mixing up completely different military forces (British army and the japanease air force) to work exactly based on rank where rank means different to each unit.

The issue you have is that people are widely varying individuals so this is pretty much out the entire of our society works & it’s frequently the case that someone at a particular level on one organisation has vastly different responsibilities to someone else often on the same money.

You see it policing, the military & public sector, & private companies. The situation you describe is pretty common amongst adult staff too.

all you can do is work to generalisms & do the job in front of you.

[GrandMaster_Flush]

@Foenix

The ATC (in my opinion) at the moment is a very divided organisation, where each squadron runs on their own rules (in some cases even different drill) of what I celebrate (differance, style and culture) up to a point where everyone gets mixed up and there is no common definition of a rank structure.

Drill; no excuse for this, there is a single drill manual.

Ranks; it is defined, explicitly. What we don’t have are defined minimum standards, except for being an enrolled, First class cadet, and, in the case of CWO, over 18. And I’d argue that’s a good thing.

You can’t hold different units to the same standard when there are no entry requirements. Anybody can join. Or not join.

Some units are very large, and have masses of competition for the comparatively very few ranks on offer.
Some units, however, are tiny, and showing a small amount of promise will be enough to see someone rise through the ranks.

Twas ever thus.

[Batfink]

Whilst I agree with the rest of the post, I do disagree here…

@GrandMaster_Flush

Drill; no excuse for this, there is a single drill manual.

There is. But, as ever, its written for the RAF pushing hundreds of recruits through RAF Halton and beyond. It’s not written for ATC squadrons squeezing 30 cadets into a spooner hut or village hall in the winter where practicality and location undermines what’s written in the book. The most memorable of variation which happens every time you put a mixed group of cadets together is the dismissal of a Squad;

• Squadrons with lots space: right incline (salute as necessary), march off for 4 paces - as per the book.
• Squadrons with variable space: right incline (salute as necessary), march off for 1/2/3 paces - as space permits.
• Squadron without space: right incline(salute as necessary), don’t march off (as there’s no space) and just sort of “give up” and go about their business.
  Put all the them together in the same flight on camp in you invariably end up with cadets marching into the backs of other cadets. Hilarious for the first few times. Then frustrating. It’s equally frustrating when the cadets with no space then return to their squadrons and start preaching “the right way to do things” without full appreciation that marching 4 paces puts them through a window and outside the building.

I speak here from experience.

When it comes to ranks - and expectations around this whole area - again, there is local variance - brought about, over time, by lack of explicit standards beyond the baseline in ACP48/49. I would argue this is a good thing - it allows squadrons to be flexible with their appointments based on need and judgement, rather than following a tickbox approach.

There are, of course, NCO courses which offer an (alleged) benchmark against which cadets are measured for onward progression. But I would argue each OC and Squadron will have different expectations for promotion. A good score at an NCO course does not necessarily reflect good potential as an NCO on squadron - especially for those amazingly talented cadets that can completely ace a weekend NCO course - but on a night-by-night basis on their squadron (arguably when it matters the most) can be a questionable candidate.

I’ve seen first hand some amazingly talented and high caliber 14 and 15 year old Corporals entirely outshine a 19 year old Cadet Warrant Officer. But I’ve also seen some 13 year old first class cadets showing more leadership than some 15 year old Corporals, simply because of their exposure to a broad range of experiences.

There are sooooo many variables, it does mean getting standardization for this stuff challenging.

My advice; ignore the comments and focus on you and your development and, as a Corporal, the cadets in your charge . Use those extra years of experience to inform your attitude and behaviours and just crack on and be the best you can be. Be an example to the cadets you are leading, and be an ambassador for your squadron. Let those skills, that knowledge, and your experiences shine through in your actions and take pride in them and your squadron.

[Mike_Bravo]

@GrandMaster_Flush

Ranks; it is defined, explicitly. What we don’t have are defined minimum standards, except for being an enrolled, First class cadet, and, in the case of CWO, over 18. And I’d argue that’s a good thing.

ACP 20 states minimum criteria for Corporal is Leading Cadet, which if delivered properly should take 12-18 months to achieve from joining. And Senior for Sergeant which should take another 6-9 months with 3 months minimum experience in the rank of Cpl. Certainly under the old system of biannual invigilated classification exams this was the case. Perhaps less so in the era of online open book exams that can be taken anytime. Classification requirement can be reduced by one for deserving candidates but this shouldn’t be the norm.

ACPs 48 and 49 provide a job specification for both ranks and list the required knowledge, skills and attributes. Really we should all be on the same page with promotion standards, the trouble lies with OCs not applying them consistently across the organisation. We shouldn’t be promoting just to fill a vacancy, only if the cadet meets the standard. I’ve recently seen a Second Class Corporal from another unit…

MB

[Mr.Cxlong]

@Mike_Bravo

Classification requirement can be reduced by one for deserving candidates but this shouldn’t be the norm

Having class be a requirment for rank, you’ll be holding back academically challanged cadets who have a hard enough time with school who in all other respects are a great candidate for promotion. As if you had a first class cadet who can lead anyone anywhere and has MOI and silver leadership and a bunch of other practicle skills and you’re going to tell him he can’t get promoted cos he’s first class.

This is even more so for cadets with things like Dyslexia who struggle with the class system but will boss everything else.

[Mike_Bravo]

That’s why the caveat is there to reduce classification requirement by one for deserving candidates, so they could be a First Class Corporal or a Leading Sergeant under the current rules. However, if they have managed to complete MOI, producing lesson plans and utilising reflective practice, then they should manage to achieve Leading. It’s three open book multi choice exams passed by section and can be taken as many times as required to pass. With appropriate additional support in place it should be achievable by all of our cadets. I have had many cadets with significant ASN over the years and all have made it to at least Leading, some just require more support from the instructional team.

MB

[Mr.Cxlong]

I was thinking more along the lines of being a CWO at leading or a Sgt or flight Sgt at first class

[GrandMaster_Flush]

@Mike_Bravo

ACP 20 states minimum criteria for Corporal is Leading Cadet

Should be. Not is.

[GrandMaster_Flush]

@Batfink

There is. But, as ever, its written for the RAF pushing hundreds of recruits through RAF Halton and beyond. It’s not written for ATC squadrons squeezing 30 cadets into a spooner hut or village hall in the winter where practicality and location undermines what’s written in the book. The most memorable of variation which happens every time you put a mixed group of cadets together is the dismissal of a Squad

Different variations allowing for space is perfectly fine.

But all cadets should know the right way to do it and do that when circumstances allow, as per the regulations.

[Paracetamol]

Dont forget there are at least half a dozen wings out there who impose their own mandatory requirements above and beyond acp20…

Having previously been in one, i can attest its not great and ellongates the time to Cpl to approx 3 to 4 years, easily.
Very very few FSs and CWOs in these wings.

Wings who make up rules above and beyond Corps orders, need closing down.

[Mr.Cxlong]

@Paracetamol

Having previously been in one, i can attest its not great and ellongates the time to Cpl to approx 3 to 4 years, easily.

Is that because they have set the bar too high or that they say you have to do a Wing JNCO course before CPL but then do 1 Wing JNCO course every other year?

[daws1159]

Probably both in some cases

[CplBiggles]

When I went on my summer camp, it seemed to be the same thing. Most of the cpls had only been in 1-2 years, one only being in cadets for 9 months! Even though I was a cpl at the time, i was doing what i normally do at my sqn. However on camp, i was doing effectively what the sgts did. I found this normal, as it was how things are done at my sqn, but everyone thought i was doing too much, and acting as if i was trying to ‘jump’ to the next rank. Promotions in my sqn came slow and infrequent after lockdown, so i had been in for 2.5 years before i got cpl.

@Paracetamol

Having previously been in one, i can attest its not great and ellongates the time to Cpl to approx 3 to 4 years, easily.
Very very few FSs and CWOs in these wings.

Some sqns and wings have self imposed criteria, and since there is no absolute, corps wide rules on promotions, people make their own stuff up.

P.S. i am actually a sgt now, i just can’t find out how to change my name on here

[Eeh_Bah_Gum]

Our previous Wing Co also wanted to put DofE into the mix; Bronze to Cpl, Silver to Sgt.

Great if squadrons were doing DofE

[Paracetamol]

@CplBiggles

since there is no absolute, corps wide rules on promotions

Except there is.
In Acp 20.

[GrandMaster_Flush]

@Paracetamol

Except there is.
In Acp 20.