But how can we emulate out parent service without the over abundance of civil servants who provide questionable output?
(That’s a joke obviously, I know CIs provide an immense amount of support to us…)
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Definitely a balance to be struck though.
Those 6 CIs are staying as a CI for a reason. They’re turning down the small carrot of VA and other little nuggets for a reason. If that’s because of the pile of admin that would be thrust upon them, then that’s an organisational problem. May well be that they have absolutely no interest in the ‘military’ side of it. And it’s some of the CIs in the corps that have the some of the best knowledge and experience to offer.
And you can be far surer they’re not just in it to walt about in combats getting a kick out of shouting at people if they turn down the uniform…!
Take those 6 CIs, if they’re turning up smartly presented, so at the very least a squadron polo, decent ish trousers/jeans and shoes, then that’s near enough a uniform in its own way.
No different to the RAF either in many respects.
Take a new pilot, day one out of MIOT and they likely won’t meet a serviceman/woman other than the odd service instructor for another six or seven years when they (finally!) hit the OCU.
Stores? Civvie.
Messing? Civvie.
MT? Civvie.
Aircraft maintenance? Civvie.
Squippers? Civvie.
Instructors? Bit of a mix, could well be chopped by a civilian pilot if it came to it.
My point is you could go down the mandatory uniform route if you wanted but would you end up with more or less instructors at the end of it? That I’d argue is the biggest deciding factor that should be looked at. If the RAF can manage with them, surely a youth group can.
Let me reiterate what I said, because I think the line is blurring…
I haven’t said it should be mandatory for everyone to go into uniform; I’ve said we need to stop making people CI by default. CI should be an option for when it’s genuinely required. The default should be to expect that the majority of volunteers joining our uniformed service go into uniform.
I’d wager that the 2 biggest reasons why existing CIs don’t go into uniform are:
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Apathy. We make them a CI, they get on with it, and very little changes if they go into uniform, so why bother?
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Scaremongering. People need to stop perpetuating the myth that CI means you can just pitch in whenever you like but that going into uniform means that you can never say no, or that you’ll have masses of admin tasks thrust upon you.
With the exception of those in executive roles (OC, Adj, WO / SNCO) CI and uniformed service these days are basically the same with the added benefit that one contributes towards the uniformed presence.
And there are plenty of CIs out there filling an Adj position or Training Officer, &c.
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This.
Its essential we convert more CIs into uniform.
We are a uniformed youth organisation.
The cadets make the effort. So should the staff cohort.
If youre prepared to be a CI. There is only 1 legitamite reason i can see why you wouldn’t go into uniform. Youre older than would be expected to do so.
So somewhere between 65 and 70.
But event that is different for different people.
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The thing we need to fix first is to make it easier for those wanting to go into uniform to either A) Get into uniform or B) access the coaching to prepare to get into uniform, obviously we need a standard to be met, given we are the light blue foot print these days
Need to streamline, remove all local blockers and generally reduce the painfulness of it so it doesnt put people off. A national consistent approach that makes it transparent
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This is lacking throughout everying we do RAFAC wide.
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I hate cottage industry
What’s essential about it? That implies there’s a looming crisis in the horizon by the amount of CIs not converting to uniform. If there is, then I’m not aware and happy to be educated!
I just see a risk of pushing out people who can’t commit to uniform. 12 hours a month might seem trivial to a 9-5er, but what about the A350 Training Captain at Virgin who wants to get involved? They can try to get down once a week and maybe the odd weekend if they can. Can probably go on a camp or two but are very unlikely to get remembrance off as it’s a Sunday, same for wing field days, BoB etc. Do we really want to put pressure on them to go into uniform, which they can’t commit to, and risk losing them?
In terms of value, they’re probably as useful a member of staff for added value as you could get. The knowledge, advice and opportunities they can navigate cadets towards could be enormous, as they’re arguably at what a lot would call the pinnacle of an aviation career.
Does it matter they put effort in making training material downroute and spending spare time helping cadets apply to flying scholarships rather than ironing a blues shirt on a Tuesday afternoon and wearing a hat?
You can have disinterested uniformed staff, and passionate, committed CIs. It’s an odd distinction that not putting creases in your trousers of an evening means you’re not putting in effort.
And think of the savings by not issuing them a bag of kit and paying them VA 
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I think the general concensus amongst my RAFAC colleagues is that the 12 hour rule is a waste of time, and should never had been included in the new T&Cs.
I wholeheartedly agree with @wdimagineer2b . Lets start appointing people into uniform, rather than forcing them to be a CI for x months before they apply. It’s incredibly frustrating for people who want to take on a uniformed role, but aren’t allowed to.
While we’re there, lets forget all of the pre service selection weekends that wings have invented. Let’s start appointing walk-ins with no previous service.
Instead of making the process of getting into uniform so full of obstacles that people choose the CI path of no resistance, lets use the APO and ASgt as the training ranks that they were meant to be.
And for the love of all that is holy, stop justifying all of the extra hurdles by saying “we’re the light blue footprint”, or “You need to know how to behave in a mess”. We need to concentrate on being an amazing training organisation, and all of our processes should reflect that, rather than basing it on some made up standards measured against what we think the Airforce needs us to be, or against an out of date idea of what behaviour is required whilst staying in a mess.
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I don’t see how this would help?
Plenty of units are run by just one or two members of staff, and where that is the case the line between what is historically “an officer’s job” and “an NCO job” is basically non existent.
No point putting yet more blockers in for no reason.
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All of which is based on an image of an air force that’s at best 30 years out of date.
Hell, my own time in finished ~8 years ago and I’m already massively beyond the times.
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Is there, many people now have far different working/family lives, may only be able to commit to a couple of parades a month, why lose people who don’t want to go into a uniform and considering some of those who I have met who wear a uniform, I wouldn’t want to be associated with them, by wearing one.
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What the wait may do is to allow a look at the individuals motives and personality and weed out the ‘walts’ who want a uniform.
Exactly
I want to double like this.
Yes by all means have a weekend or better still 2 days of doing uniform prep, a bit of drill and when say sir or ma’am - but don’t make it a pre selection thing. Just let people crack on once their DBS is in place
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Thats that 12 months between appointment and CIC is for…to learn the core competencys and skills before an RAFAC CLS course to validate
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So you’re prepared to base your entire staff recruitment strategy on the off chance that it might put off a “walt”? Really? Where are the stats to back up that process?
I would bet my left testical that anyone who joins just for a uniform will leave soon enough when they find out about the mandatory training. Or minimum time commitment. Or DBS. BPSS. SC etc.
Lets be super realistic about who and what we are. We are not the airforce. Uniformed staff are not some super elite members of the human race. Lets get people into uniform, and then train them!
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Or gets dealt with via admin processes for inappropriate conduct, either quitting or getting the boot.
And let’s be honest:
We all wanted the uniform to some degree for one reason or another.
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I’m a Flight Lieutenant and I have zero interest in drill, shouting, wing politics or wearing a uniform unless I really really have to.
That’s part of the problem, we allow CI’s to do everything that we allow uniformed staff to do, that’s not the way it was designed to work and is the reason that many Ci’s don’t go into h inform, they can do everything upto and including holding Wing/Region staff roles as CI’s.
Bingo!
Surely if we make going into uniform the default that’s a big step towards fixing problem A?
Plenty of Wing out there where they don’t have any uniforms candidates to take on Squadron Command roles, I would call that an existing crisis.
I’ve not known minimum hours be enforced in years, the only time I can think that it was they were using it as a stick to get rid of someone they wanted rid of.
It a pointless rule and is treated with the contempt it deserves in most places.
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100% this.
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Absolutely.
It’s not a looming crisis on the horizon; it’s a very real crisis that we’ve been suffering under for years.
Brand new, green officers are being thrust into command of units because we don’t have enough officers in the pool so that every unit gets a few to develop towards command… Keen SNCOs who would be brilliantly placed to take on sector NCO or Dep Wg WO roles are already working hard running a squadron with no officers at all… Equally, I’ve got several squadrons who have no SNCOs whatsoever.
You know what practically every squadron has got? Several CIs on the books who turn up regularly.
We have more than 2/3 of the total staff in civies around here.
I’m a massive advocate for chinning off that 12 hours per month requirement. It’s utterly pointless. It doesn’t achieve a damned thing; because nobody with a life outside of the Corps thinks “Well, I really should go to this family birthday meal… Or finish that project for work tomorrow… Or [insert important life task here]… But I can’t because I need to do my 12 RAFAC hours this month.”
People give what they can give. If I’ve got someone who can give 8 hours per month and that’s all they can do, I’d rather have that person giving 8 hours in uniform, than 8 hours in civies; all other things being equal.
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