Promotion Matrix

[wdimagineer2b]

Yes, the SCC seem to have that side of things down better.

In answer to the question about how they do things…

Their initial appointment to PO / Sgt (in the RMC) requires more work than ours. They need to demonstrate competence in the core syllabus and hold the required qualifications before they are made substantive.

To progress to CPO / CSgt (Flight Sergeant) they must have at least 6 years in the previous substantive rank; hold a current and relevant instructional qualification (and be actively using it); and pass a promotion course. To get to WO 2 and then onto WO 1 they must have 6 years in the previous rank and be filling a specific WO post. Their WO posts - like ours - are 4 year tours, with the option for more than one tour. If they hold a WO (2 or 1) ranked post for 5 years they retain the rank. Otherwise, they revert to CPO / CSgt when stepping down to a lower post.

Having worked with the SCC / RMC on certain events over the last 12 years, I can say that almost every CPO / CSgt I’ve come across has been leagues ahead of most of our equivalent SNCOs. Some of their POs / Sgts would wipe the floor with some of our WO in terms of professional ability.
I’m sad to say that it’s been a source of embarrassment on more than one occasion.

Their emphasis on professional achievement to earn promotion (which is still totally achievable by volunteers) seems to have worked well for them. The primary difference between our two systems is one of mindset… Where their volunteers recognise and accept the need to work for promotion; our years of substandard structure seems to have bread an expectation of promotion… To the point where now to suggest introducing restriction or requiring particular achievement, often brings cries of “denying people”. We just need to change our narrative.

I think that one of the best things we did in recent years was to introduce the Central Training Team and setting a high bar for attainment of the Skill at Arms Instructor Qualification.
It proved that our volunteers can achieve high standards, if they have the desire. Pity it’s gone now.

[Paracetamol]

@wdimagineer2b

now to suggest introducing restriction or requiring particular achievement, often brings cries of “denying people”.

I dont think this is the issue.

The issue is those who by arbitrary appointment date can be 1 or 2 ranks higher without effort, whilst those joining or appointed now to reach same point will have to jumo even more hoops.

A fairer mechanism would have been to.

1. Establish very clear requirements for holding of all ranks for all people.

2. review for example ALL current WOs. Anyone not meering point 1 above is reranked. This could be demotion or promotion. The former being 95% i suspect.

3. Ensure this is done Corps wide to all ranks and fairly, with an established route for people to ask for final independant review if needed.

4. Sit back and admire a job not done a shoddely as HQAC usually do it.

[steve679]

@wdimagineer2b

despite them being basically pants

this is an integrity issue.

if they are pants why are WWO and OC Wgs signing them off?
(why? because they either have no backbone and/or fear losing the individual who’ll otherwise walk by holding them back)

Promotion is not just a matter of ticking boxes on the matrix, it also requires recommendation from WWO and OC Wg…

if there are Pants WO it reflects as badly on them as it does the pants WO

[FunVampire]

Far too many people believe the matrix is a tick box and that once you’ve got it you’re going to be promoted. The org has been setting these people up for failure by not accurately and repeatedly pointing out that these are minimum requirements.

I know Sgts and FS who, when it’s coming up to 4 years, let it be known that their promotion is due. As a matter of fact. It shouldn’t be that way. But the org has allowed it to become that.

The only positions that should be immediately attainable are Sgt and Pilot Officer. Everything else should be based on merit then need.

[steve679]

@FunVampire

the org has allowed it to become that.

only because WWO and OC Wgs see it as:

@FunVampire

the matrix is a tick box and that once you’ve got it you’re going to be promoted

they don’t recognise that they can say no.

As Sqn OCs we recognise that we have Cadets who tick all the promotion boxes but are not mature enough, or reliable or missing that element of leadership and so they don’t get Cpl/the extra stripe/crown

yet those who consider the promotion of CFAVs (WWO and OC Wgs) do so as a tick box themselves - rather than apply the same "are they the right person to be a FS/WO? how do they stack up against the other FS/WOs in the Wing).

I have never known a Sgt or FS been denied promotion having completed the promotion matrix, as I say there is as much fault with the WWO and OC Wg that the matrix is considered a minimum as the SNCOs who treat it as a such.

[Horriblelittletechie]

I’m going to throw a bit of a grenade in the mix.

Why should you start as an SNCO?

Why not include a JNCO / junior rank to start the journey as a CFAV? It’s what the Aussies do.
Keep the junior ranks as training / intial ranks that mean you’re limited in what you do. You then have to earn those higher ranks to allow you do deliver more training.

I couldn’t be a DI/SAAI when I was an SAC as I didn’t have the rank. So why are people who just join an organisation allowed (i know not immediately) but essentially go straight for those courses with minimal experience?

[Paracetamol]

@Chief_Tech

1 - introducing JCpl / LCol rank to the ATC

Warning warning code 1A detected.

Don anti flash hoods and brace for impact.

[Biggles_Lovechild]

In the VR(T) days we had far too many time served Flt Lts who were not filling ‘command’ posts
One of the ‘positive’ aspects of CFC (don’t flame me) was the removal of time served and the rank/post relationship - do the job get the rank, leave the job revert to Fg Off

As an org we are far to heavy with WOs - about time we did the same. WO is a pinnacle rank in the parent org so should be for SNCOs in RAFAC as well. We have too many T&Ls coming out of the cornflake packets

As long as we make the rules now and stick to them we will be fine. yes there are still a glut of time served WOs around but over time they will go and the SNCO side will mirror the commissioned side.

So long as we all know the rules when we join then there is nothing to complain about - plus the org can change the rules when it likes - if you don’t like it then leave, but on an issue of rank, then it draws into question why you were here in the first place

[Horriblelittletechie]

@Paracetamol

warning code 1A detected.

Oops.

[FunVampire]

That’s why we have APO and Acting Sgt. But it should be mandatory that people stay at that rank for 2 years before promotion.

[Horriblelittletechie]

I get that, I’ve just never seen it work in practice.

I have NEVER seen an APO however, and I have known many newly commissioned officers within RAFAC. And the only acting Sgts I’ve seen have held that for <1 year.

[FunVampire]

Generally speaking, APOs and ASgts shouldn’t be doing much/anything off-squadron, so unless your unit has one, you won’t be seeing any.

At least, that’s the theory…

[AlexCorbin]

Theres too much common sense in this post, i think you need to have a look at yourself in the mirror

[Horriblelittletechie]

Fortunately I’ve had a haircut so I’m not completely disgusted with what stares back at the minute

[Virgil]

Amazing what a haircut, shave/shapeup and a long shower can do for the mind haha

[Horriblelittletechie]

@Virgil

long shower

Don’t mention that to the missus. I wouldn’t be able to afford the gas bill the showers she takes…

[willow]

Totally agree.

I would use Cpl as a starting point for at least two years to learn the skills needed to be a uniformed volunteer.

There was a while back concerns of where a adult Cpl would be accomodated if they were on MoD property but the simple answer is that either they cant attend camps etc etc or they do what the regulars have to and out up with it (very simple).

[daws1159]

@willow

There was a while back concerns of where a adult Cpl would be accomodated if they were on MoD property but the simple answer is that either they cant attend camps etc etc or they do what the regulars have to and out up with it (very simple).

Which is all well and good except:

a) You are then taking volunteers and making them less useful if they can’t attend camps.
b) Most stations have very limited transit accommodation so they might not have the option to do what regulars do.

[Chief_Tech]

So two aspects here & apologies for repetition.

1. the joining/tracking rank of APlt Off & ASgt
2. the promotion requirements for other ranks.

So just on the first & again from the SCC as relevant. SCC use to use the rank of APO for acting Petty officers & it’s why this rank abbreviation is listed on SMS. This was previously & subsequently changed back to PPO - probationary Petty Officer.

This is a better description as it was the rank held whilst going through their newly appointed training - don’t complete the training? Revert to CI. This is the correct use of the acting/probationary rank - newly appointed to ensue someone completes the training.

@FunVampire

That’s why we have APO and Acting Sgt. But it should be mandatory that people stay at that rank for 2 years before promotion

Probationary should be kept as short as possible and should be there to confirm someone has the correct basic knowledge. If they can’t go off unit for two years they won’t get the experience so this is a non starter of an idea & you’ll loose volunteers.

[quote] 2) the promotion requirements for other ranks.
[/quote]

This is where you need to determine what the “theme” for each rank should be

Rank 1 - training rank - 2-4 years. Further development & knowledge & specialising in a skill area to deliver the cadet experience.

Rank 2 - substantive operational rank. You are confident in your role, are regularly delivering in your specialist area & the training wheels have come off. This is the rank that forms the basis for all your further development & the rank to which you will return should you wish to dial back. 4-6 years in rank before progressing.

Rank 3 - first rank of extra responsibilities & the tactical aspects of the organisation. Wider experience & knowledge & often linked to a specific or dedicated post

Rank 4+ ranks involving strategic aspect of the organisation, linking in with paid staff & helping to write the policies.

Now I would recommend that rank 3 is promotable on merit & not purely post linked, however you have to requalify for the rank every 3-5years if it’s not linked to post.

Certainly a boarded interview for first time promotion to rank (then matrix tick boxes if going up & down).

If you leave the post you retain the rank provided you still qualify (which avoids people clinging on & causing post congestion). This also helps clear out any of the Flt Lt unpaid & WO who have stagnated & plateaued long ago and are not performing the role of that rank anymore.

[Horriblelittletechie]

It’s a good way of doing things. I can see how that would work well.