Oh, I have considered that, DofE hikes and personality clashes don’t go well haha.
TheCdt. I always find a certain way how to deal with those type of people. I use it everyday in work. You just simply need to nod you head and get on with what they say they will soon get bored of trying to get attention from you.
I’m not sure how you deal with it at the moment? Do you question it? Do you make a funny face after being asked? Or any indication that you don’t want to do it? Because if you are then inside they crave that type of attention and that’s why they keep on going like it is. Just simply nod your head and do what you are asked and DONT do anymore than what you have been asked, eventually they will stop!
But yes, this should not be happening and you fill find your own way of how to deal with it, best chance is to walk away and leave the squadron to it, that way you have won. What is happening now is a very useful life skill when you go to the working world because you are learning at a young age how to deal with people like this, and trust me, you will meet many people like this.
Other than that, good luck with how you approach this. Keep us updated, it will be sad to a cadet leave because of a few stupid throbbers
TheCdt. There are some really useful replies in this thread - especially big-g’s advice to start a diary. Write everything down, even if you think it is silly, or stupid. Try and write it as soon as you can, as memories can start to fade very quickly. Add as many facts as you can, and also how you felt at the time.
GrumpySumpy68 is absolutely spot on. There should be no place in the ATC for bullies, nor for those that look the other way, and allow it to happen.
You’ve followed the correct procedure by reporting it to your staff. That has not sorted the problem out, so it is time to escalate the issue up your chain of command.
Your Wing Headquarters will have a permanent Squadron Leader as it’s Executive Officer (also called the WExO). You or your parents can phone them during the day, or email them if you prefer. The WExO is a full time reserve officer, and is outside of the volunteer chain of command, so you can rely on them to be impartial. This is especially important, as it seems that both your OC and the WWO have either not appreciated the depth of the problem, or purposely brushed them aside.
Please do mention that you feel that you are being bullied - do not not try and down play your feelings, even if you feel embarrassed, or scared. As a staff member, it’s not always easy to get the full picture from cadets who have a problem. The WExO may put you in touch with the Wing Child Protection Advisor, but if you or your parents have lost confidence in the volunteer staff, you can ask the WExO to stay involved.
Well done for putting up with everything so far. Your experiences on the Squadron are not normal, and it sounds like a few people on your squadron have lost sight of what the ATC really is for. The fact that you are still in the organisation is a good indicator that you have the ‘right stuff’ to become an NCO, so keep it up.
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I’m not sure I would agree with this advice.
When you go to work, you have financial compensation for your efforts. You can enjoy your job, or hate it, but you will still receive your wage at the end of the month. You also have a range of options to deal with any workplace bullying - unions, mediation, or in the way that you have mastered. I would think that if you were doing your job for free, in your spare time, you might be a little less inclined to just nod your head, and get on with it.
TheCdt has started a hobby that should be about making friends, having fun, and pushing her own limits - not folding other cadets sports kits, toilet cleaning and stock takes. I appreciate that there are duties to be done by cadets, but they should be split equally amongst all cadets, NCO’s included. Take away the fun for a cadet, and there is really no point in the OC opening up of an evening.
In my experience, unless bullying behaviour is challenged, then it will continue. Victims may come and go, but until this problem is sorted, the “Head down, and crack on” routine will just continue to sap the enjoyment of the ATC for this cadet, and others after her.
I wonder if this sort of thing is seen as normal on your sqn, ie cadet NCOs pick favourites and also those less favoured.
I find it extremely difficult to believe that in the cocoon of a sqn HQ something like this hasn’t been picked up by the staff. Just by looking on an average parade night I and the other staff can see if cadets are getting dicked for duties more often than others and then say that others get the job for the next few parades.
Either way it’s far too late to start a diary in my mind this should have been happening once it was felt you were getting unreasonable demands. Also a diary no matter how accurate is only one person’s account of things and then there is one word against another. If you submitted a diarised list of things and something was to happen then it would hardly be a pleasant experience afterwards.
As I suggested, cut your losses and get on with life, as the next two years of school will invariably help to shape the next 40-50 and having this as a distraction and making you unhappy/angry will not do you any favours. Some have suggested walking away won’t end what has happened nor stop it happening to someone else, but you need to put yourself first. You only get one stab at education for free so make the most of it. There are plenty of other places to volunteer if that’s something you want to do.
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It troubles me that there are staff on squadrons that see TheCdt leaving the ATC, rather than addressing the problem, as the ideal solution. Please don’t forget that serving as a CFAV is hugely different than as a cadet. If a CFAV feels undervalued/bullied and leaves, then the Corps loses out. If a cadet is bullied out of the Corps, then that cadet will loose out. Why should TheCdt miss out on the opportunity to go flying, shooting, do sports, go on annual and overseas camps, take part in Nijmegen, do fieldcraft, AT, DofE… all because someone has taken a dislike to her.
For all we know, the ATC could be fundemental in the TheCdt becoming a future RAF Officer, VR(T) officer, SNCO, SNCO (ATC), CEO, Prime Minister… if she is only given a fair crack at the whip, and not turned into someone’s whipping girl.
[quote=“Farriersaxe, post:28, topic:2504”]
Either way it’s far too late to start a diary in my mind this should have been happening once it was felt you were getting unreasonable demands. Also a diary no matter how accurate is only one person’s account of things and then there is one word against another. [/quote]
It’s never too late. The point of the diary is not just to catalogue events, but for the person to record how they felt as well. Bullying is as much about how events make the victim feel, as they are about what actually happened. What you or I could shrug off, someone may be crying themselves to sleep over. A diary that records this, can be the difference between nothing happening, and the sacking of an OC.
A good few years ago, I happened to work with a young girl with IBS. Her condition meant that she had frequent days off, and also spent a lot of time during the working week in the ladies room. Our manager didn’t like the fact that her condition effected his productivity stats, and he made sure she knew it. She got ALL of the rubbish jobs on the team, got told to miss her tea breaks to catch up, was denied time off for hospital appointments… all stuff that could have been explained away, had they been one off events. She complained after a number of months, but was told as there was no proof, there was nothing HR could do about it. She was told to keep a diary, and report back in a few weeks. When everything was written down, it was obvious that the manager was bullying her, and he was removed from his role as team manager, and shunted to a non supervisory role.
If a complaint is upheld, and the OC allows repercussions, then they are not fit to command a squadron.
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I don’t think it’s overlooking what has been happening by suggesting leaving. As I said with the next couple years being pivotal for the next 40-50 having something like this leaving you upset and distracting isn’t something that you want or need. Fighting it would be draining and distracting for what? The things you mention are fewer and further between now to the point where they aren’t even on the radar. As I said DofE can be done anywhere. It’s brilliant that they have achieved the results they have while it’s been happening. Leaving doesn’t stop you being mates with people from the sqn and may be the impetus to seek new opportunities. The ATC isn’t as important as you seem to suggest, it is a factor in the lives of the youngsters who join, but it’s how they use that experience. Staying and having to fight and or endure this behaviour would be more detrimental to self-confidence than leaving, which would affect things in the future.
The thing about repercussions is they don’t have to happen on the sqn and we have no control over what happens off the sqn and cannot do anything about it, as that would be blurring the lines. Plus repercussions can be anything and be done by anyone and you would never know and it would very difficult to pin it to someone else instigating or suggesting it. I had a parent complain that her son was being called names at school by someone from the sqn, I told her that I can do nothing and she needs to take it to the school for them to deal with.
As I said in previous post, it would seem that within this sqn and Wing some seem to think it as acceptable. It has never been acceptable, even when I was a cadet in an era when ‘safeguarding’ didn’t exist like it does now. People who ‘bullied’ others were given short shrift. These people which seem to include the OC, no doubt sqn staff and WWO who should be suspended and sent on proper safeguarding courses, not the nonsense we do in the Corps. When I started at this school like all support staff (as a number of us are also form tutors) I was sent on a safeguarding and child development course which lasted 2 days (of information overload) overall. It covered a number of things and opened my eyes a lot as I’d only ever done what the Corps offers. I think our training should cover child development for our age group as it might help us to understand the cadets better and be more accepting of them as individuals.
There is always something that you can do if you are willing!!!
I had the same issue and As far as I am concerned they are cadets inside and outside of the squadron and they signed their 3822’s saying the will be good citizens etc. I pulled the boy aside told him straight he was endanger of bringing the sqns name down and not fulfilling the agreement he made with the ATC on citizenship and if he didn’t stop it he may well be out on his backside. Yes mummy and daddy came down and I had a discussion with them and they were more than happy as they didn’t want to see him branded as a bully and since he enjoyed the cadets he didn’t want to get kicked out so he changed his ways rapidly.
A strongly worded discussion is all it took but sitting back and saying it’s not my problem is not a good example to set.
You have to separate the ATC from what people do in their real lives.
What you do in your real life may have consequences on staying in the Corps, if you end up in court for instance. But IIRC that’s documented somewhere. But for instance you got ‘sacked’ from the Corps for something (non criminal) would you put it on a CV or job application, would you expect your employer to instigate some sort of disciplinary action or sit you down for a chat … I doubt it very, very much. If you got sacked from work (for something non criminal) would you expect some sort of sanction from the Corps? If they tried it I’m sure the conversation would be quite short!!
Would you do what you suggest if it was a member of staff experiencing as mentioned above?
Would you do something if a cadet who got into trouble at school, if you knew about it?
Would you expect a school take some sort of action against a pupil who got into trouble in the ATC, if they knew about it?
Depends if your job required an enahnced DBS. You can be sacked from the ACO for various non criminal transgressions which the ACO has a duty to report to DBS (in the event you try and apply elsewhere for a similar thing).
I would personally recommend contacting your Wing Commander. If what you are saying is correct this is humiliation and bullying, which is very much ground upon by the Corps. Your Wg Cmdr should look after everything child welfare and safeguarding related. You would need to be very clear of whats gone on Sqn and how your staff have acted. It would have more weight if the complaint came from your parents.
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It’s all well and good advising taking it to the Wg Cdr and yes they may take action, but this will take time and as mentioned above there could be repercussions on the sqn or off the sqn and it would be extremely difficult to control the latter, which opens another can of worms entirely. I would echo the view that leaving and getting on with your life as a good option, rather than hanging around while there is an investigation, which would have to be done if it gets to the Wg Cdr and it could go outside the Wing in terms of investigating officer, as the OC has not taken any action. At the very best it could have others walking on eggshells around you, as I doubt there could be any hint of surprise over how this has come about.
This happened on a sqn near to us that was subject of an investigation after a complaint about a member of staff (I know the now Chairman from work but then committee member … he asked me if I’d consider moving there) and it ripped the heart out of it and it’s only just getting itself back to normal nearly 6 years on, but it has been an uphill struggle. Over the period of the investigation and outcome cadets left as did staff. One of the cadets who left was one who made the complaint about the member of staff (which turned out to be unfounded), as they started work in the meantime.
I’ve also seen something similar at work where going back into the 90s a girl complained about a bloke wolf whistling her, he got a talking to and no one dared say anything to her. Unless it was business no blokes spoke to her for over a year, just in case it got misconstrued.
I do think the OC and WWO (and probably most of if not all the sqn staff) from what has been said need to be advised as to the errors of their ways and potentially shown the door, the OC and WWO especially, if their comments are as reported the sqn sounds like what I imagine an inner city youth club run by ‘youth leaders’ would be like. The fact it has gone on for so long shows an attitude of sticking their heads in the sand and hoping it might go away, rather than taking some action. Promoting a Cpl who has been complained about shows a really colossal lack of judgement.
If that’s true, that’s disgusting behaviour and there’s no place for it. It’s demeaning and just lowers the tone in the workplace.
[everyone knows your supposed to slap the office girls on the ■■■■ whilst calling them sweet cheeks]
No seriously, disgusting behaviour
Have you ever seen the list of offences that can flag on a DBS? It is quite amazing but all refer to criminal acts. Our CP lead has a poster of them on his office wall. Interestingly I know a few people who’ve been nicked for some of the things mentioned and they actually work with children and old people at levels far in excess of what we do.
The only things that might not come under criminal acts per se are List 99 (as far as I’m aware only applies to teachers) and POVA/POCA (but these are defunct I believe) although they could initiate criminal prosecutions.
What non criminal acts would the ACO report and where would it reside to get included on a DBS search, that could result in a negative DBS? Probably the only thing is prone to being an idiot at times.
It’s worth remembering a flag on a DBS doesn’t automatically mean a bar to employment, employers can use discretion.
To be honest, I believe that most volunteers put much more into the Corps, that they take out. So, if it was a member of staff, suggesting the above wouldn’t be out of the question*. It’s very much a case of “it’s their loss”, and as you said, the opportunities to volunteer elsewhere offer much the same kind of rewards as the ATC.
*As a caveat, I believe that it our moral duty to report any suspected or witnessed bullying in the Corps. Assuming the COC has the moral fibre to attack it head on, it is easier to remove bad eggs from the ATC, than it is from a civilian employer. So giving that advice should never be needed.
If cadet got into trouble in school, and it was connected to the ATC, then depending on the situation, there would be repercussions on the Sqn. If, for example, the Sgt who has taken a dislike to TheCdt tried to use her ATC position to continue her ill treatment, then I would take further action against them. I’ve had to deal with incidents that have started at the Sqn, but spilled over into school time before.
I’m pretty sure most Schools have a framework to deal with issues of abuse and bullying that occur away from school. Whether they choose to get involved is another matter.
I think the big difference is most Schools have their hands full teaching English, Maths, and the like. Aside from anything else, one of our principle aims to to develop qualities of leadership and good citizenship. Whatever way you try and disguise it, brushing any suspected bullying incidents under the carpet, or advising the victim to simply go elsewhere, doesn’t do anything to achieve those aims at all.
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To summarise:
Don’t report bullying, as it will take forever to sort out, and the ATC will stand by as your bully is allowed to carry out reprisals. In any case, the cadets and staff won’t talk to you afterwards. So just leave.
I look forward to reading this in the next version of ACP1.
At least the complaint got investigated, which hasn’t happened in the OP’s case…
Earlier this year, I had to investigate (overseen at every point by my WSO, I must say) a member of staff on a local Squadron accused of bullying a cadet on my squadron. The complaint was well intentioned, but ultimately unfounded. It was dealt with swiftly, and no one left the ATC as a result. The staff member involved continued to behave in a professional manner around the cadet, and treat them as they did any other. The cadet was happy that their complaint had been dealt with in an impartial manner, and concurs that there had been a misunderstanding. The staff member and cadet were recently together on an AT exped, and if I hadn’t been aware of any past issues, I wouldn’t have known they had a history of ill will.
My wing is far from perfect, but on important issues like this, they get a massive thumbs up. The system works, and works well.
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As cadets are not subject to the Armed Forces Act, in theory they can only be given instructions not orders. The only exception to this would be in a British registered aircraft which you have boarded with the intention of flight where the commander has legal authority to make a lawful command which you are bound to obey (I cannot foresee any circumstances in which folding sports kit would be considered a lawful command!)
There is no legal obligation to obey an instruction given by a cadet NCO. You could be asked to leave the ACO as you are not abiding by the rules of the organisation you have joined, but that would short circuit any complaints procedure as a reason would have to be given. I suspect a refusal to fold sports kit would not be given in writing. If you are asked to leave you will no longer be constrained by the chain of command and a complaint could go rapidly to the top, particularly with the threat of publicity.
If you are leaving anyway you could consider this, as it would rapidly embarrass everyone who is giving you grief, unless, of course, that realise they are being out manoeuvred it which case it might solve the problem anyway.
Should mention that she (the Sgt) was a Cpl when I first complained and has since been promoted to Sgt (and possibly FS in the next six months).
Sorry for the late reply,I have started sixth form now and I have decided to part time on my ATC career. I realise that work,school and the Corps will be difficult to juggle and with all the problems,too much stress.
Despite all this,which marred my last 10 months of ATC life,I had a fairly enjoyable time. 50% was ok,50% wasn’t.
I know I havent dealt with it the right way.
I feel it was my calling to go.
TheCdt,out.
Pity.
Understandable, but still a pity.
If you can spare an hour, write an email to your Wing EX O - a full time Sqn Ldr who’s job is to keep an eye on things - just let them know the kind of things that have gone on, and how your Sqn staff have err… managed the situation when you’ve gone to them.
It won’t do much for you, but it might serve the next cadet who has a problem and who finds the staff at your Sqn less than helpful.
Good luck for the future, have a great life.
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