In the regulars its becoming increasingly common & encouraged for WOs to take a commission straight into Flt Lt, especially if they manage to climb the ranks fairly early in their Career. Which i dont plan on following in the RAFAC
True - but that’s the way things are. A Sgt (RAFAC) quite often has a much higher flying civvy job than a Ft Lt (RAFAC). Reason being, Sgt (RAFAC) doesn’t have anything to prove, whereas Ft Lt (RAFAC) gets a social superiority boost. Cadet forces ranks don’t mean anything, but we play along with the game to make our wing commander feel special. By selecting the best for commission and fast tracking them, I think we can make the commission route more attractive to the few who are better suited to organising things. There are plenty of shouty types left to do the SNCO route.
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The culture of recent years across the organisation is pushing people the commission route, even if they’ve applied for SNCO and probably aren’t the right character for Commission…There’s a drought of Sqn OCs that need to be filled and the organisation has reached a point of someone is better than no one.
Also the broad statement of Sgt having a higher flying civvy job may have some legs but is a very broad assumption, there’s definitely less expectation of a Sgt Vs Officer…but I don’t think its with having anything to prove…i think its simply it suits a work life balance better…Higher up the civvy food chain you go the more time hungry it normally becomes. Its certainly one of the factor that was involved when I made the decision between VRT & SNCO as i was rapidly climbing the career progression ladder at that time.
What are you talking about?! 
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Do you have any proof of this?
Just thinking about all the uniformed staff just in my wing alone, it would be hard to justify that statement. There are people from all walks of life in both SNCO and Officer ranks and I would say in my little part of the world it’s probably pretty equal.
If anything we have more CIs with high flying careers than uniformed staff. But that’s weighted because we have a lot of older CIs who are too old to be in uniform but have had a full career and are at the top of the totem pole in there company/field.
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I think this is an over correction from when SNCO came in and some Wings pushed everyone down the Sergeant route and then realised that they didn’t have any Junior Officers. It happened to me and was a waste of 18 months when I could’ve been learning how to be an SNCO when I could’ve been learning how to be a Junior Officer.
Valid points there.
The regulars don’t do this, so why should we? 
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This is far truer, mostly due to the time commitment that’s comes with being in uniform, but also in some cases due to a reluctance to play the game, I’ve always found these to be my more militant CI’s.
What I would support is some sort of PI role where you can be uniformed and claim VA, get your CFM eligibility etc but take that time to learn the basics and explore whether SNCO or commission is a better fit for you.
Oh, and bring in NCO to CCF(RAF). We’ve recently lost two potential members of staff, one an ATC FS who wants to transfer to CCF due to work commitments meaning he can’t do ATC for a few years and doesn’t want to commission as he’s an NCO through and through. Instead he’s now left the RAFAC. The other is a school caretaker who was Regiment WO in a previous life. He doesn’t want to be an officer on principle, the only way he could be an NCO is to be SSI which is a paid role (and already filled).
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I’d agree with this, it would be part of my ongoing desire to see CI scrapped for new joiners. 
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Defo this
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What does the package look like from the outside? Can the organisation countrywide deliver on it? Is it flexible enough to accommodate all comers and needs therein or is it too rigid, bearing in mind we work, have families and other things we like to do, which may not fit into the Air Cadet pantheon?
Personally I think the whole thing is too localised. Depending on the sqn people either get a gradual introduction or more likely than not, it’s a sense of great another body to get to do things and they’ll pick it up as they go along. Also no sooner have they crossed the threshold; do you want to be a SNCO or Officer and you’ve got 5 minutes to decide, because we are desperate for uniformed staff.
Removing the CI option would increase the number of uniformed staff but would it increase the number of staff longer term, vs start as CI and remain as a CI or go into uniform from CI? Our local ACF has gone through more PIs than we have CIs in over 20 years. Where they start and for whatever reason bin it and those that don’t, as seems to be a thing in the ACF, get told where they are going and the majority say no thanks and leave. An old Major reckons our CI system is good as it has no real pressure and people seem to be treated with a bit of respect.
The question is …. why are we so desperate for uniformed staff, answer this question objectively and we might crack it.
One problem is the expectations are too much and then when you have taken the shilling, this just piles up.
Idly rambling on about not having CIs and doing this or that, isn’t going to solve the problem, unless the overall package looks and is appealing. If we went no CIs what would happen to current CIs? What would happen to people who have been in uniform find they no longer want it or their life has changed so it doesn’t suit them anymore? Would we just chuck away potentially decades of experience? Is this notion of losing CIs just because people can’t actually handle them as they can say “no” and prefer the idea of people just towing the line?
People make too much about learning to be an SNCO or Jnr Officer, as uniformed staff in a youth organisation, there is little more than a fag paper between any of us. But you need experience to see and then accept this. Our 2 sides attracts certain types who very quickly get into this us and them mindset which stifles progression. As a result the culture of SNCOs do this and Officers do that remains and plays on this us and them mindset, which then festers and damages us. Lose this nonsense and we may move forward as an organisation, but I fear we are too tied to the RAF for this to be allowed to happen.
Like everything in the organisation we have to rely on people appointed from outside the Air Cadets to act and I’m not convinced they have the want or wherewithal to do this, if they did, it would have happened already. So this sort of conversation will continue to be had.
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Probably. It took a little while for me to be convinced to go into uniform, and I nearly gave up on the process a couple of times. 2 years to get from application to commission - how many do we lose as they want a uniform role but get fed up with the road blocks/time frames.
It took me 3 years to go into uniform, but I knew which way was suited after a few months. PI rank or similar for a year - gets people in uniform and joining in to solve the above problem… 1 year should be plenty to make your mind up.
Slowly let them run out as they either move to uniform or leave. There wouldn’t be many left in 10 years time.
I think this is more prevalent between squadrons than it is between our different cadres.
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I agree with a lot of what your saying
Cross thread as feel this fits better in the CFAV Recruitment.
But we need to get the joining / induction process nailed down before we try and recruit en masse
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What an odd thing to say. Where is your proof of this? What do you define as high flying? Once you have you definition, how do you measure this and to what end? I couldn’t care less whether Flt Lt Bloggs is a neurosurgeon as long as they are a good bod for the org.
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Some of the last day would be better in threads about the rank structure, as CFAV Recruitment is more about methods and the “campaign”.
Problem being there are relevant and “better elsewhere” remarks mixed in the same comments.
If we can get back to focusing on making the switch from commissioned to NCO… That’d be great 
Don’t demean yourself in such a way and stay as an Officer.
(Just trying to help)
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If it helps, PI 301, para 2 states that:
“Potential SNCO adult members of staff may be recommended for appointment following ATC cadet service, CI service or upon leaving commissioned service.”
So it is possible and permitted to go from holding a commission to being an NCO. As to how many CFAV actually decide to do that - I’ve never met one in all the time I’ve been a staff member.
I wondered how long it’d take for someone to bend this thread to this age old devisive opinion
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