Mtp

papa_november · 29 September 2014 16:41

The plan is:

Find retailer.
Private purchase.
Wear your faecal toned brown boots.

Baldrick · 30 September 2014 10:31

For me the bigger problem is that we can wear black with MTP, but not Brown with DPM.

As Brown boots are now becoming more common, Grade 1 Assault boots less so and where DPM is still easy to obtain it is quite easy to see a situation in the not too distant future where a cadet can only get brown boots which he can’t wear with DPM. I would let them wear the two together, but the letter of the law says no. I think that should change.

Perry_Mason · 30 September 2014 10:49

So let me get this right Baldrick… you’re suggesting some kind of pragmatism/common sense over blind obediance of a set of rules which don’t quite cater for all situations our organisation/its members could face?

You sure you’ve got the right hobby?

incubus · 30 September 2014 11:06

Isn’t he actually suggesting that the rules which we obey blindly are actually amended so as to better fit reality.
There is no need to pragmatism or common sense when we can tailor our regulations appropriately and maintain our blind obedience.

Baldrick · 30 September 2014 11:17

Isn’t he actually suggesting that the rules which we obey blindly are actually amended so as to better fit reality.
There is no need to pragmatism or common sense when we can tailor our regulations appropriately and maintain our blind obedience.[/quote]

I suppose I’m asking for both? If the regs were actually written with pragmatism/common sense in the first place blind obedience would be relatively straight forward. I’ll just ask ATF SNCO next time I see him. He’s actually pretty accommodating if you ask the right question. That’s what I did before he changed the regs over Plt Off/Fg Off No3 rank braid backing colours.

Gunner · 30 September 2014 11:48

[quote=“Perry Mason” post=21114]So let me get this right Baldrick… you’re suggesting some kind of pragmatism/common sense over blind obediance of a set of rules which don’t quite cater for all situations our organisation/its members could face?

You sure you’ve got the right hobby?;-)[/quote]
They’ll soon knock that sort of common sense approach out of him when he gets promoted to Wg Staff. :evil:

MattB · 30 September 2014 11:55

[quote=“Baldrick” post=21113]For me the bigger problem is that we can wear black with MTP, but not Brown with DPM.

As Brown boots are now becoming more common, Grade 1 Assault boots less so and where DPM is still easy to obtain it is quite easy to see a situation in the not too distant future where a cadet can only get brown boots which he can’t wear with DPM. I would let them wear the two together, but the letter of the law says no. I think that should change.[/quote]

Depends on how you read it.

[quote=“AP1358C 1.06”]0222. CS95 Authorised Ensemble. When authorised to wear and except where a specific order of dress has been prescribed through the OC Wg / Wg Ex O / Sqn Ldr CCF HQAC, only the approved CS95 ensemble, as detailed below, is to be worn. Appropriate RAFVR(T) or ATC Insignia must be worn at all times. Other items of operational clothing issued for specific operations outside the UK are not to be worn in the UK. Illustrations and relevant orders of dress are detailed at the end of this section. CS95 ensemble comprises :
a. Head-dress. The service issue beret is the only head-dress to be worn, with appropriate hat badge by all ranks.
b. DPM Field Jacket. No shoulder epaulettes. The front rank epaulette is to display Blue rank slides for NCOs and Blue Composite Braid (mounted on an appropriate colour background where required) for Officers, including the appropriate VRT – ATC insignia as issued.
c. DPM Lightweight Combat Suit (L/W Jacket & Trousers). No shoulder epaulettes, blue rank slides only are worn on the front rank epaulette.
d. T-Shirt. All year round wear under garment of an appropriate colour (Olive Green, Brown or Black). Unit insignia should not be visible.
e. OG Norwegian Shirt. Under garment for cold conditions. (Not MTP)
f. Fleece Liner (OG/DPM). Cold conditions undergarment, or suitable mid layer, not to be worn as outer layer.
g. DPM Moisture Vapour Permeable (MVP) Suit. Lightweight Gortex waterproof jacket and trousers.
h. Gloves. Black gloves, appropriate to the task.
i. Boots. Black or Brown combat style boot.[/quote]

(My bold)

I’ve been wearing brown boots with DPM for a few months and no one’s complained yet. I’ve no idea whether that was actually the intention of the rules, but that’s the letter of them and it seems to make sense so I’m sticking with it. If anyone has a problem, feel free to provide me with a full set of MTP so it matches my boots.

steve679 · 30 September 2014 12:07

i was about to quote the same regs Matt.

the book says either, so wear either.

I have no issues with it. there is a JL Cadet on our Sqn who has both CS95 DPM and MTP-PCS and treated himself to a new pair of brown boots for the course. he wears either No3 but only one set of boots.
if its in the book its legal

Baldrick · 30 September 2014 12:07

[quote=“MattB” post=21120][quote=“Baldrick” post=21113]For me the bigger problem is that we can wear black with MTP, but not Brown with DPM.

As Brown boots are now becoming more common, Grade 1 Assault boots less so and where DPM is still easy to obtain it is quite easy to see a situation in the not too distant future where a cadet can only get brown boots which he can’t wear with DPM. I would let them wear the two together, but the letter of the law says no. I think that should change.[/quote]

Depends on how you read it.

[quote=“AP1358C 1.06”]0222. CS95 Authorised Ensemble. When authorised to wear and except where a specific order of dress has been prescribed through the OC Wg / Wg Ex O / Sqn Ldr CCF HQAC, only the approved CS95 ensemble, as detailed below, is to be worn. Appropriate RAFVR(T) or ATC Insignia must be worn at all times. Other items of operational clothing issued for specific operations outside the UK are not to be worn in the UK. Illustrations and relevant orders of dress are detailed at the end of this section. CS95 ensemble comprises :
a. Head-dress. The service issue beret is the only head-dress to be worn, with appropriate hat badge by all ranks.
b. DPM Field Jacket. No shoulder epaulettes. The front rank epaulette is to display Blue rank slides for NCOs and Blue Composite Braid (mounted on an appropriate colour background where required) for Officers, including the appropriate VRT – ATC insignia as issued.
c. DPM Lightweight Combat Suit (L/W Jacket & Trousers). No shoulder epaulettes, blue rank slides only are worn on the front rank epaulette.
d. T-Shirt. All year round wear under garment of an appropriate colour (Olive Green, Brown or Black). Unit insignia should not be visible.
e. OG Norwegian Shirt. Under garment for cold conditions. (Not MTP)
f. Fleece Liner (OG/DPM). Cold conditions undergarment, or suitable mid layer, not to be worn as outer layer.
g. DPM Moisture Vapour Permeable (MVP) Suit. Lightweight Gortex waterproof jacket and trousers.
h. Gloves. Black gloves, appropriate to the task.
i. Boots. Black or Brown combat style boot.[/quote]

(My bold)

I’ve been wearing brown boots with DPM for a few months and no one’s complained yet. I’ve no idea whether that was actually the intention of the rules, but that’s the letter of them and it seems to make sense so I’m sticking with it. If anyone has a problem, feel free to provide me with a full set of MTP so it matches my boots.[/quote]

Ah, I see the issue now. The bit you have just quoted above refers to CS95 ensemble as a whole. Then when you scroll down to the page which gives the guidance on CS95 (page 45) it says this: “Boots: Black combat style boot.”

So there is a DIRECT Contradiction in the regs.

MattB · 30 September 2014 13:21

Indeed there is, and I see that as 100% not my problem.

Baldrick · 30 September 2014 13:30

It’s mine now. Currently having an argument with the WWO about it, he saying that 45 is right. Me saying that it’s a contradiction so he needs ATF to clear it up.

zinggy · 30 September 2014 13:50

It’s mine now. Currently having an argument with the WWO about it, he saying that 45 is right. Me saying that it’s a contradiction so he needs ATF to clear it up.[/quote]

Knowing said WWO all I can say is have fun with that!

incubus · 30 September 2014 14:58

I would suggest that, pending clarification of the written regulations one way or the other, that only black boots should be worn with CS95 for the following reasons:

Historically, it is consistent with the CS95 ensemble as published in previous regulations
It is as stated in the detailed breakdown (p45) which stands alongside the detailed PCS breakdown (p46)
It is the boot which is definitely correct regardless of which version you look at

However, HQAC should move to ensure that this error is corrected in the next revision as it clearly has potential financial implications.

Baldrick · 30 September 2014 16:19

It’s mine now. Currently having an argument with the WWO about it, he saying that 45 is right. Me saying that it’s a contradiction so he needs ATF to clear it up.[/quote]

Knowing said WWO all I can say is have fun with that! :P[/quote]

I think I’m safe.

juliet_mike · 30 September 2014 21:59

Yeah, correct the error then wee Johnny who has just formed out £100 for brown boots as the current regs allow it has to pay again for black.

OR just ignore it, who really cares.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

incubus · 1 October 2014 07:44

Seems like little Johnny now has a perfect excuse to get that MTP stuff he’s been wanting…

Baldrick · 1 October 2014 11:05

Funny. I would have bet good money that page 45 is the error. Not 42. (Especially as that would mean you can’t wear brown boots with CS95 MTP)