MTP Webbing

Everyone Fieldcraft
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[quote=“incubus” post=25110]Perhaps we would be best saving the true experience of using the service rifle until the cadets are truly in the services.
[/quote]

i will add to the mix that the ACF use the service rifle, more so than the No8…

so if they are why not us?

i doubt that will be a deciding factor for any recruit which CF to choose but the ACF already have certain freedoms over weapons and their use than the ACO…why extend it further by dropping the service aspect?

there is also the aim to "offer skills useful for military life"
ok no one is going to leave the ACO and walk into Basic training and be skipped the L85A2 lessons not needing them, however it will reduce the teaching burden further than otherwise.

if Cadets join for a military experience…why should we deny them that by doing little more than the Scouts?

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My county hasn’t seen a No 8 in several years.

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[quote=“Baldrick” post=25114][quote=“tango_lima” post=25112][quote=“incubus” post=25110]Perhaps we would be best saving the true experience of using the service rifle until the cadets are truly in the services.

Until then we could accomplish the majority of the task with improved safety and surety if time and effort wasn’t wasted faffing with the accessories and the focus was placed on actually operating the rifle.

The book may well say that it is a necessity at the moment but it has been written by misguided souls and books are revised regularly.[/quote]

“Service Rifle” is a shooting discipline, enjoyed by a large number of civilian shooters…

By your logic, cadet shooting should be restricted to 10m air rifle from the prone position…if you can’t safely use a pouch on a belt then you should be nowhere near a 5.56 self loader…[/quote]

That is not his logic. That is a non-sequitur.

Webbing adds nothing to the ability to actually shoot in a straight line. (It may even detract from it if incorrectly fitted.) How about we get that bit right first?[/quote]

You use air rifle or No 8 to teach the basics of marksmanship, so that the cadets are confident that they can shoot straight and consistently hit a target with a simple rifle with none of the associated additional drills: ie: pouches, dust cover, sights…

Once they can do that, they progress to more complex shooting with the L98 and target with L81…

Progression. :slight_smile: Incy is arguing that we ditch the progression and just do the first bit. If all people want to do is small bore gallery or air, then that’s cool and they should be encouraged in it, but the progression should be there for those who want to do other things.

Shooting is so much more than “Prone position down, five rounds grouping…”

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I’m arguing that, while the first bit is of primary importance, progression is still possible but need not be so immersive as to become a distraction from the marksmanship goals.

Progression still exists with the added complexity of the L98A2, opportunity to shoot from greater distances, involvement in bigger competitions etc.

45

I’m arguing that, while the first bit is of primary importance, progression is still possible but need not be so immersive as to become a distraction from the marksmanship goals.

Progression still exists with the added complexity of the L98A2, opportunity to shoot from greater distances, involvement in bigger competitions etc.[/quote]

I’m not really sure what we’re disagreeing about…

Why does opening and closing a pouch on a belt suddenly make shooting so complex it becomes nearly impossible? It is just another step in the drills and means that you don’t get magazines left lying in puddles etc…

I feel like people who have never really used webbing see it as way more of a big deal than it is. It’s just something you wear and put things in.

46

I’m a gallery RCO and a WI, current on No8 and L98A2. We have used webbing with the L98A2 since it became a 3-line whip a couple of years ago, though we do not often get the opportunity to shoot full-bore for various reasons.

The use of webbing and ammo pouches is an impediment and a distraction. The advantages of using ammo pouches seldom compensate for the difficulties that they are seen to cause for the vast majority of the LFMT that we are involved in. Most of our shooting is a static activity in the prone position where ammo can be issued directly into a puddle-free area to the left of the firer as required. We know that we are perfectly capable of operating like this as we did so for decades without problem until the use of webbing was enforced. It gives improved control and visibility for the RCO and does not detract from the shooting.

That said, there are some situations where webbing is clearly useful and I do like the load in the standing position. This does not get us away from the fact that pouch closures are still fiddly but they are particularly awkward in the prone position where our firers spend most of their time. This is probably for a variety of reasons including lack of practice (we don’t all get to shoot that regularly and skills fade), the pouches being too stiff (webbing used infrequently), webbing being not correctly fitted (shared webbing swapped between firers), cold hands etc.

All this serves to distract the firer from safe handling of the rifle and slows down the practices as we end up waiting for pouches to be secured.
it is for these reasons I question whether the mandated use of webbing during all firing is actually a safe and sensible policy for shooting within this organisation.

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[quote=“incubus” post=25133]
it is for these reasons I question whether the mandated use of webbing during all firing is actually a safe and sensible policy for shooting within this organisation.[/quote]

Everyone else manages alright.

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[quote=“talon” post=25134][quote=“incubus” post=25133]
it is for these reasons I question whether the mandated use of webbing during all firing is actually a safe and sensible policy for shooting within this organisation.[/quote]

Everyone else manages alright.[/quote]

until it goes wrong, at which point the question of why a potentially dangerous activity thats not practiced enough as it is was made more hassle for all involved will be asked by a Coroner and the media. ‘its what soldiers do’ is not a good answer…`

i’m with Incy, shooting just isn’t practiced regularly enough for ‘average’ cadets to be at the stage where moving on to more progressive/interesting shooting is worth doing, and the size/strength/age of a significant number of the cadets means that every distraction from holding the rifle is a problem.

if you want shooting to be more interesting, take them to more interesting ranges (N range at Sennybridge is very good, and there are hundreds of others…), fire from a trench, give them target orders (10 rnds at a 50m target, 10 at a 300m target, 10 at 100m), give them fire orders (5 rnds in 10 seconds, 20 rnds in 120 seconds, 5 rnds in 10 seconds), make them do a 5km route march before they get to the firing point…

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[quote=“angus” post=25140][quote=“talon” post=25134][quote=“incubus” post=25133]
it is for these reasons I question whether the mandated use of webbing during all firing is actually a safe and sensible policy for shooting within this organisation.[/quote]

Everyone else manages alright.[/quote]

until it goes wrong, at which point the question of why a potentially dangerous activity thats not practiced enough as it is was made more hassle for all involved will be asked by a Coroner and the media. ‘its what soldiers do’ is not a good answer…`
[/quote]

Sorry, but I have been on a LOT of ranges and we have always used webbing when firing both L98A2 and the L86A2. I have never seen or heard of any incidents occurring because of it. What are you imagining will happen?

50

Well lets get some dump pouches too shall we. Why not some quick reload pouches with the elastic too. And helmets too. Its an inservice weapons. Ooooh and lets put more pouches on and fill them up with 21llbs of kit. Cos its an in service weapon.
Cadets have to be given a head start for basics dont you know.
Webbing is not part of the weapon system. Its a load carrying system. Its not atrached to the weapon. And you can use other items to carry said loads. A chest rig, osprey, cot vest, even a smock.

The only arguements I can see for Webbing being compulsory is to look like a bloody regular.
I have yet to even see a cadet on a range with a correctly fitted set. Except maybe the first detail who have had time to adjust it. before palming it off to the next.
Oh my cant have those 3 mags of 15 rounds ina pocket or on the deck. Heavens no.

If you want to get a good grounding for shooting to go onto the regulars, get the bloody marksmenship principles right first. I helped out at a wing shoot and not a single cadet thay I saw was applying all the principles. 1 of them was just blatting rounds off, it wasnt even a bloody rapid fire cadence it was just a joke, converting live rounds to brass.

Lets get the bloody basics right first before worrying about looking like some doorknob from call of duty.

If you have the webbing and you have the exoerienced cadets. Fine. Use it. But dont make.it compulsary.

If you have a bunch of wet lettuces thay cant even hold a weapon with both hands. Ditch the webbing. Seen some of the most horrendous faces of feeble cadets trying to reach into their webbing pouches to grab one of their many, many magazines while their barrel is bouncing around more than Highlabd dancer.

Lets focus on getting those groupings smaller than a barn door before introducing webbing and other technical aspects shall we?

51

You just need to be pro-active in sourcing webbing. Our wing has approx 60 sets now so all cadets and staff are trained with webbing from the start. Webbing goes to all wing shoots and is bookable for squadron shoots. There is enough webbing (in different sizes) that each cadet gets a set at the start of the day/weekend and has it correctly sized. No swapping between cadets.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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[quote=“RearAdmiralScrinson” post=25146]
Webbing is not part of the weapon system. Its a load carrying system. Its not atrached to the weapon. And you can use other items to carry said loads. A chest rig, osprey, cot vest, even a smock.[/quote]

Unfortunately for you SASC disagree, we have to play by their rules, so webbing is in.

[Quote=“Cadet Training - Ranges 2015”]
The dress for cadet training with Cadet WS, ammunition or pyrotechnics is stated in the appropriate cadet manuals, however when firing using the L98A2 Cadet GP Rifle, ideally cadets and CFAV should have webbing/viper vests, enabling them to carry out the correct weapon handling drills. [/quote]

[quote=“RearAdmiralScrinson” post=25146]
If you want to get a good grounding for shooting to go onto the regulars, get the bloody marksmanship principles right first. I helped out at a wing shoot and not a single cadet that I saw was applying all the principles. 1 of them was just blatting rounds off, it wasn’t even a bloody rapid fire cadence it was just a joke, converting live rounds to brass.

Lets get the bloody basics right first before worrying about looking like some doorknob from call of duty. [/quote]

This is what the Number 8 Rifle should be used for, to build and develop the cadets shooting ability before progressing on to the more advanced rifles such as the L98 / L81 / L86. The cadets should always be coached when shooting so that they have improved by the end of the day, either by a senior cadet or CFAV, but on a 1:1 basis

[quote=“RearAdmiralScrinson” post=25146]
If you have a bunch of wet lettuces that cant even hold a weapon with both hands. Ditch the webbing. Seen some of the most horrendous faces of feeble cadets trying to reach into their webbing pouches to grab one of their many, many magazines while their barrel is bouncing around more than Highland dancer.

Lets focus on getting those groupings smaller than a barn door before introducing webbing and other technical aspects shall we?[/quote]

If they cannot physically manage the weapon system they are not safe to fire and the RCO should not permit them on the range as per ACTO 43.

[quote=“Acto 43”]
Be considered by the Sqn Cdr to be sufficiently mentally and physically mature to be capable of competently and safely firing the rifle. [/quote]

Whilst the OC may have considered it the case, it is down to the RCO to make the final call as it’s their range, it may be better for teh cadet to spend some more time with the No.8

53

and you’ve never been on a dead-end camp where shooting is the only thing going on and there is enormous pressure - internal as well as external - to have as many of the cadets pass their WHT’s so they can shoot as possible?

never seen cadets who, in other circumstances, would be considered a bit small to use the rifle but because its a dead end camp end up on the firing point struggling to keep the rifle pointing down range while changing a magazine?

webbing is an embuggerance cadets already at the limit of their strength don’t need - it adds nothing to the shooting experience, it just gets in the way.

1 Like
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For those crying out for a progressive shooting experience, maybe we should start L98A2 shooting sans webbing and prone only before progressing to webbing and multi-positional as a second stage of competence? The weapon itself is complex enough as it is (certainly in comparison with the bolt-action rifles)

Since the subject of camps has been brought up, I may as well make a suggestion I’ve made before.

It seems to be difficult to get all cadets L98A2 qualified before attending camps and I have seen a steady decline in the availability of No8s on camps, meaning that the only shooting available is on the 98 and very often the majority of cadets on the camp aren’t qualified. As it takes 2 days with a favourable wind to train someone from scratch on the thing, the half-day still allocated in the camp programme is useless except for running the few re-tests that may be needed.

We should be able to run a basic famil on the weapon (hold, aim, safety, load, unload) which will allow a cadet to lie down on a firing point, pick up a weapon and operate it under close 1:1 supervision for groupings only. It doesn’t result in a WHT pass but it gets cadets shooting, builds interest and encourages them to get the full course done.

We should be encouraging cadets to take part in shooting, and making it more difficult and elite than genuinely necessary will not do that. I must say that the same needs to apply to staff qualifications as well, though the SASC model appears to be to force everybody to become an RCO on L98A2 as a base qualification!

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I agree if a cadet can’t hold a rifle, the RCO should not allow on their range. Surely if a cadet fires without webbing all their cadet career, when they joins up they have to get practiced in using webbing? Why not start early. Get the skills on No.8, then move up?

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When they join up they will be trained from scratch and have to adapt to change levers (and a more complex function test) and won’t be using the safety catch as often. There is some skill crossover but it is mostly irrelevant.

We’ve moved drill to AP818 for a couple of reasons but a main one was so that we use the same drill as the RAF and that retraining when they join up is less of an issue.

Should we do the same with rifles? Rather than having a cadet rifle and cadet rifle drills to go with it, surely using the L85A2 and its drills will serve better as training for regular service!

I suspect that would not be a popular move as apparently we can’t trust cadets not to fiddle with the change lever so we have the L98A2 Cadet GP rifle. We also have cadet drills to go with it (a recent Pam5C tried to take the use of the SC out of a lot of drills but that amendment lasted about 2 weeks before the outrage bus crashed into it and it was all changed back)

The argument that our procedures shouldn’t vary from regular procedures is not compelling: they already do and I suspect they always will.

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That’s what Basic Training is for, what do you think all of those recruits do who weren’t cadets?

58

with the greatest of respect, thats a morons argument.

cadets are 13/14/15 when they come into contact with the L98 for the first time, not 18/19/20 and engaged in a transformative physical training course.

moreover, when soldiers fire the service rifle, they do so in a helmet, body armour, belt-kit, perhaps having done a 25km tab and carrying a 80lb bergen, several thousand rounds of link for the section MG’s and a slack handful of 81’s. they might also whip out the bayonet and practice sticking it into the ‘ribs’ of a grinning sandbag. so why should the ACO just cherry-pick shooting with webbing? if you’re going to do it ‘properly’, then do it properly…

interestingly, this argument that the cadets should learn to shoot ‘realistically’ rarely seems to be accompanied by an argument that those teaching them should learn to run/plan/assist ranges ‘realistically’ - perhaps if the ACO is going to go down this route, all the shooting bods should be required to attend the Platoon Sergeants Battle Course: or does, remarkably, shooting in the ACO not require 12 weeks of arduous work at a very wet, very steep Brecon?

shurely shome mishtake?

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[quote=“angus” post=25150]
and you’ve never been on a dead-end camp where shooting is the only thing going on and there is enormous pressure - internal as well as external - to have as many of the cadets pass their WHT’s so they can shoot as possible?

never seen cadets who, in other circumstances, would be considered a bit small to use the rifle but because its a dead end camp end up on the firing point struggling to keep the rifle pointing down range while changing a magazine?

webbing is an embuggerance cadets already at the limit of their strength don’t need - it adds nothing to the shooting experience, it just gets in the way.[/quote]

Well…no. The cadet should have taken their WHT with the webbing on and therefore should have proven themselves capable of doing this simple thing. I have very small cadets in my unit and they manage to use webbing just fine. If cadets are having trouble opening and closing the pouches, you do realise that PLCE pouches offer velcro closure?

If you take them through all the SAA training and assessment without webbing and then take them on a range and show it to them for the first time then yes, you will have issues.

60

a point i was just about to make!
our monthly Wing shoots include IWT for No8 and L98A2 and the “issue” webbing has velcro and i have no issue with a Cadet using it, providing a firm and deliberate press is applied and not just stroked

[quote=“talon” post=25165]
If you take them through all the SAA training and assessment without webbing and then take them on a range and show it to them for the first time then yes, you will have issues.[/quote]

^^this
if the Cadets can’t hold the weapon they shouldnt be doing the training
if the Cadet has recieved the training there shouldn’t be anything new to them once on the range…