I imagine he means if you don’t wear webbing, you don’t need to NSP it? Therefore, if webbing is not necessary, the whole rigmarole is a bit unnecessary to shoot.
It’s not a completely ridiculous point, if wearing webbing doesn’t add anything to the shoot, why bother?
I think webbing should be used wherever possible as it is part of the whole ‘service rifle’ thing… I mean, why bother with L98 at all, .22 is good enough surely?* I can’t understand this ATC desire to make shooting as dull and systematic as possible.
If webbing is too complicated for people, then I’m not sure that they should be trusted with lace up boots…
(I am going to qualify this post by saying that I think ‘webbing’ for these purposes should be ammunition pouches, belt and yoke… not super special mollesasparacommandoallinoneincludesapouchforyourkitchensinkasusedingannersbysteelyeyedkillers webbing bought off ebay)
*I’m exaggerating for effect, but as a cadet we had an adult sergeant who genuinely thought that way…
Why even bother flying, its not like their going to become fast jet pilots…
Not sure if you’re agreeing or disagreeing with me?
I’ve been and had a quick gander at the NRA rules for ‘Civilian Service Rifle’, which require webbing (“SAA order” - ie: belt, yoke, pouches) to be worn…
The ATC has more than one rifle, and they’re all suitable for different things: No. 8 for small bore gallery, L98 for service rifle and L81 for target… seems disappointing that they (bar L81) just get used to blat away at 25m… obviously, there are plenty of good reasons why that ends up being the case and I’m not knocking the staff who struggle to put even that on…
The use of the ammunition pouches is part of the correct drill for L98 and a requirement for competitive service rifle, fair enough if circumstances mean you genuinely can’t get hold of them and do things that way… if all you can do is 20 rounds each at 25m then do that rather than nothing… but why dumb things down and complain that doing them properly is too complicated? You may as well just shoot No 8, since semi automatic, centre fire, full bore rifles are more complex and shooting is shooting, right?
I was agreeing with you.
It seems with all the blue fancy stuff, they want all the stuff and follow it all and want to look all air forcey. But when it comes to greens and fieldwork the ATC seems to just be in the dark ages. And wanting to dumb it down and make it hard to do anything.
It’s surplus to requirements at most levels of ACO shooting, it would be so much simpler not to use it. By all means get used to it when you play in the big boys & girls competitions, but for a 25m barrack range, it can be a huge distraction.
It certainly adds to NSP timing, & with webbing, many cadets fumble around too much with the pouches & end up wobbling the rifle all over the place. If they are “corrected” then sometimes their shooting enjoyment & accuracy suffers as they are worrying more about the blooming’ ammo pouches than the firing.
As an RCO, I also like to see exactly where the magazines are & if there are live rounds left over from any of the practices. Can’t do that when they are hidden in pouches. Likewise, issuing of magazines when the firers are on the point just gives me that little more confidence of knowing what is where - & although it has’t happened on any ranges that I have been on, prevents those metallic clicking noises should a cadet try to insert a magazine in the rifle without being so ordered… B)
Then why not make the shoots progressive? (I am not sure with the current system, so cant comment, will read up)
I can see both points. But really the ACO need to get their excrement in 1 sock when it comes to Greens and green stuff, the RAF isnt just about blues and flying a desk.
The only thing I will comment on is that all the webbing sets I see just have 2 double mag pouches. So its pointless. We train with webbing because its what we use. Utility pouches and all. Plus the Right hand mag pouches are obsolete. I bin them for a Utility pouch. I have never placed any mags in it. Ever.
If your going to do it. Do it properly with a proper set of webbing not some shambles.
[quote=“RearAdmiralScrinson” post=25092]Then why not make the shoots progressive? (I am not sure with the current system, so cant comment, will read up)
I can see both points. But really the ACO need to get their excrement in 1 sock when it comes to Greens and green stuff, the RAF isnt just about blues and flying a desk.
The only thing I will comment on is that all the webbing sets I see just have 2 double mag pouches. So its pointless. We train with webbing because its what we use. Utility pouches and all. Plus the Right hand mag pouches are obsolete. I bin them for a Utility pouch. I have never placed any mags in it. Ever.
If your going to do it. Do it properly with a proper set of webbing not some shambles.[/quote]
In my experience cadet attendance at shoots is so infrequent and irregular every shoot is like starting from scratch again. There’s no way you can be properly progressive when you are always starting with the basics again.
Baldrick raises a good point…
and Admiral i see you point, but we are at the bottom of the pecking order, not issued Greens/No3 uniform the chances of getting full webbing kit is just not likely from the MOD…and so is either Sqn purchase, beg, borrowing, stealing or knowing a mate in stores…
[quote=“steve679” post=25102]Baldrick raises a good point…
and Admiral i see you point, but we are at the bottom of the pecking order, not issued Greens/No3 uniform the chances of getting full webbing kit is just not likely from the MOD…and so is either Sqn purchase, beg, borrowing, stealing or knowing a mate in stores…[/quote]
Why even bother using it then? Why not ditch it and focus on them getting a decent fire position and marksmenship principles and focusing more on the shooting aspect rather than the gucci look like a regular bit?
I see a few cadets struggling to use it, and they dont get enough practise with the stupid clips. They go from the ammo point to the firing point, not really a need.
[quote=“Baldrick” post=25098]
In my experience cadet attendance at shoots is so infrequent and irregular every shoot is like starting from scratch again. There’s no way you can be properly progressive when you are always starting with the basics again.[/quote]
That’s not an answer. You’re just describing the problem.
Scrinson said: “Make shooting more progressive” and you responded with “Shooting isn’t progressive enough.”
We know. That’s the problem. How can we fix it? 
[quote=“RearAdmiralScrinson” post=25103][quote=“steve679” post=25102]Baldrick raises a good point…
and Admiral i see you point, but we are at the bottom of the pecking order, not issued Greens/No3 uniform the chances of getting full webbing kit is just not likely from the MOD…and so is either Sqn purchase, beg, borrowing, stealing or knowing a mate in stores…[/quote]
Why even bother using it then? Why not ditch it and focus on them getting a decent fire position and marksmenship principles and focusing more on the shooting aspect rather than the gucci look like a regular bit?
I see a few cadets struggling to use it, and they dont get enough practise with the stupid clips. They go from the ammo point to the firing point, not really a need.[/quote]
That’s the point, in our sector we have to teach and train with webbing then when we go to camp
Either we take all the webbing or try and source locally. If you are going on a shooting weekend then it’s perhaps
Do-able but if you are going for a weeks camp to RAF whatever, add in all the kit the cadets and staff need to take then bags of webbing, also perhaps a small IT department it soon gets ridiculous! All because nobody wants to use a brain cell to think do we REALLY need it on a barrack range for a basic shoot??
If you were training for a special shoot (CSAM??) then yes but basic marksmanship no
But this stems from the training. If they are trained as per the rifle pamphlet, ie with webbing for all lessons, they become proficient. For those cadets that have undergone the full course of training with webbing, its no issue. The issue arises when a WI/SAAI has bodged the training, to teach them to pass the WHT, which makes them a liability on the firing point.
I’ve never had a problem with cadets using webbing, and sufficient has always been available, for a barrack range you will have no more than 6 lanes, so you only need 6 sets of webbing, obviously having more will make the range run smoother, but that is a nice to have.
If webbing is available then it should be used 100%. When your cadets progress to shoots that include run downs or are doing FT with B&P then they are already used to using webbing.
Not using webbing because of ‘faff’ is just preparing the cadets to fail at a future opportunity.
because the book says we must
because it is part of the weapon system
because not using it is removing the true experience of a service rifle
because the book says we must
because it is part of the weapon system
because not using it is removing the true experience of a service rifle
10+ hours of IWT should be ample time to get used to it.
TBH 4 hours of IWT should be adequate given lesson 3…
Perhaps we would be best saving the true experience of using the service rifle until the cadets are truly in the services.
Until then we could accomplish the majority of the task with improved safety and surety if time and effort wasn’t wasted faffing with the accessories and the focus was placed on actually operating the rifle.
The book may well say that it is a necessity at the moment but it has been written by misguided souls and books are revised regularly.
[quote=“incubus” post=25110]Perhaps we would be best saving the true experience of using the service rifle until the cadets are truly in the services.
Until then we could accomplish the majority of the task with improved safety and surety if time and effort wasn’t wasted faffing with the accessories and the focus was placed on actually operating the rifle.
The book may well say that it is a necessity at the moment but it has been written by misguided souls and books are revised regularly.[/quote]
“Service Rifle” is a shooting discipline, enjoyed by a large number of civilian shooters…
By your logic, cadet shooting should be restricted to 10m air rifle from the prone position…if you can’t safely use a pouch on a belt then you should be nowhere near a 5.56 self loader…
[quote=“tango_lima” post=25112][quote=“incubus” post=25110]Perhaps we would be best saving the true experience of using the service rifle until the cadets are truly in the services.
Until then we could accomplish the majority of the task with improved safety and surety if time and effort wasn’t wasted faffing with the accessories and the focus was placed on actually operating the rifle.
The book may well say that it is a necessity at the moment but it has been written by misguided souls and books are revised regularly.[/quote]
“Service Rifle” is a shooting discipline, enjoyed by a large number of civilian shooters…
By your logic, cadet shooting should be restricted to 10m air rifle from the prone position…if you can’t safely use a pouch on a belt then you should be nowhere near a 5.56 self loader…[/quote]
That is not his logic. That is a non-sequitur.
Webbing adds nothing to the ability to actually shoot in a straight line. (It may even detract from it if incorrectly fitted.) How about we get that bit right first?
But neither does a semi-auto military rifle.
If all we’re doing is learning how to shoot straight, what’s wrong with the No 8?
Its poorly balanced for today’s teenagers who appear to have zero upper body strength!
Bring back rope climbing in PE I say!
All jokes aside there is nothing wrong with the number 8 and where the facilities and trained instructors allow that should be the default entry into cadet service shooting for our cadets. Where this isn’t possible (due to the above) then Air Rifle is suitable.
The thing is that if you’re a teenager and you wanted to do some shooting then you could (fairly) easily join a local shooting club and shoot small bore to your hearts (and wallets) content. Full Bore Service Rifle is one of our USPs over any other youth organisation and I for one want to keep it in place - it keeps me in volunteer job after-all (I’m a Wing Shooting Officer).
The rules are that wherever possible you should use webbing to shoot the L98A2, we’ve got 50+ sets in my wing which have been the result of a bit of begging and a bit of investment from the Wing Welfare Committee to ensure that cadets in their wing have the correct kit for shooting. It’s really not that expensive and doubles up as a useful resource for the Wing Fieldcraft Team too! (Win Win)
I agree that shooting is all too infrequent (just like gliding and flying and all our other activities at times can be too infrequent) however this variety is often what keeps the cadets engaged in the organisation and leads to them getting badges and we all know that cadets love badges!