Hello, joining the forum as I’ve found reference to newer Gens or Marks of MTP PCS when browsing on eBay and other online stores. Those listings haven’t been very helpful in discerning the actual differences; I’ve routed through numerous topics on this forum and read some scattered comments, but I wanted to ask the people who know their stuff and find out 1) the physical differences and improvements(?) between Versions, and (2) which is better on an operational basis as an Air Cadet, if anyone has any opinions.
Absolutely nothing else on the web on this that I can find! I just want to be as informed as I can so that I can advise other cadets on what to buy, and know whether it’s worth buying a Mark 2 for a higher price.
So from what I’ve seen:
MTP PCS Combat Shirt (Temperate, Not Barrack CS95 Version):
Mark 1:
Has Velcro padding pockets on forearms (may be more difficult to roll up sleeve). Always an option to self-modify and remove velcro.
Full Area Velcro attachment on arms for blanking patches
Mark 2:
No Velcro padding pockets on forearms
Velcro solely on edges of blanking patch attachment. Has potential to loosen over use and make blanking patches less secure, may exacerbate issue when putting on daysacks/bergens
Reinforced cross-stitched velcro fastening on front of shirt to address issues of Velcro tearing away
(From an eBay listing) “Full zip version”?? Could anyone clarify what this means…
MTP PCS Windproof Combat Smock:
Mark 1:
Full Area Velcro attachment on arms for blanking patches
Velcro solely on edges of blanking patch attachment. Has potential to loosen over use and make blanking patches less secure, may exacerbate issue when putting on daysacks/bergens
Zips on handwarmer pockets to prevent linings from getting wet
More durable pocket mesh lining, less likely to catch
MTP PCS Combat Trousers:
Mark 1:
??
Mark 2:
??
Note: completely expecting some comments saying “why does it matter?” to which I can respond that I honestly don’t know at this current point whether there is a practical advantage of having one over the other, and like many others I’d rather be aware of the differences before making my decision!
I’ll edit the opening post with all the added differences from other members for a comprehensive guide for people looking this up later.
I would personally say that being private purchase you can wear what ever as long as its current patern. As in the physical difference @MattB this is probably your cup of tea
Absolutely with you here, no cadet will be judged on what MTP gen they have (if it can even be noticed). I can spin it though and say that if cadets are going to spend their own money on it, it would be nice if they knew what to look out for to make the right purchase decision!
I own a V1 shirt, a V2 shirt and a barrack shirt. I like each of them.
The V1 seems to be more heavy and nice in the winter. The arm pockets are INCREDIBLY irritating and make it difficult to roll up the sleeve - easy fix, rip out the velcro and sew up the pocket (carefully).
The V2 is more lightweight and doesn’t have the irritating arm padding - but the velcro perimeter of the blanking patch is rather annoying as it managed to loosen itself, and generally just doesn’t feel as sturdy.
Finally, the barrack shirt is fantastic in my opinion, especially in the summer. It has no zip, no arm pockets, just the lovely classic cut of CS95 in the fancy MTP pattern we all love. The lack of zip make it a lot smarter on the lapel/collar, and makes it a lot more breathable in the summer. I would only recommend wearing the barrack shirt in winter if you are indoors (or any time of year, as the name suggests it is worn in barracks).
As for trousers, goodness knows. I’ve never noticed a difference. The CS95 cut ones are the same as 95 woodland trousers just in MTP, so with the rope-type waist ties and exposed buttons, and no zipped pocket. I would stay clear of those and get PCS trousers.
The second pattern smock has zips on the handwarmer pockets so they don’t stay open and get wet. The mesh lining in the pockets is also better quality as it had a tendency to catch on anything you put in your pockets.
The most obvious way to tell the shirts apart is the stitching on the velcro on the front. Mark 1 shirts only had stitching on the perimeter of any velcro parts, the mark two has a cross stitch through the middle as well. This is because there were problems with the velcro just pulling off the shirt, rather than separating.
This is as intense as air rec… But for uniforms!
I’m certainly going to lookout for the cross stitched Velcro patches now however!
Will earn my blue uniform spotter badge any day now.
The Mk2 smock is worth getting if it is the same price as a mk1, that said I have an old mk1 for use in the field and it’s still good (and faded, which is Ally)
Boy a lot of information to process here - this is lovely. Thanks and the more the merrier!
@A400m: Really useful and I’ll start to edit the top with your info. If I could be cheeky and maybe get you to check, but are the material blends on the V1 and V2 different at all? Or has the weave just been made looser… There was also a mention in another board (Hot Weather PCS | Army Rumour Service) that the number of washes the articles go through does affect the stiffness - your V2 has gone through a similar amount of washes right?
@Baldrick: Oh that’s a great change - I’ve heard that the handwarmers have been divisive to say the least, and the zips are a real legitimate improvement. I’m in the stage of acquiring MTP myself, and in the surplus store I found a V2 for £45 and a V1 for £35. From your comment I’d say the extra tenner is probably worth the investment but it’s good to let my cadets know. The mesh lining in the pockets - I’m assuming these are the chest pockets?
AFAIK the changes are mostly in response to user feedback, so the later kit should be slightly better. I wouldn’t worry about it much though, unless it’s an absolutely straight choice between the two.
If you’re not in a super hurry an air show or better still military vehicle show is a good bet. I’ve seen new condition smocks for around £25. With luck you can see the different versions too.
Thought this was a windproof membrane?
Wouldn’t be much point having the waterproof layer under the outer which would still get waterlogged and weigh a ton… Though I wouldn’t put it past the Army to think up such a thing.
its a waterproof smock - the normal windproof smock is, errr… windproof.
actually its the norm - the issue lightweight waterproof jacket is meant to be worn underneath the windproof smock, this is because no waterproof on earth is robust enough to cope with what roughty-toughty soldiers would put it through in the field, so you put the simple, no pockets waterproof thing on the inside and lob your robust windproof with all the pockets over it.
it does, in fact, work. it should be remembered that PCS and the old CS95 which used the same philosophy are designed to be work when by soldiers doing a 3 week foot patrol across West Falkland in a sub-Antarctic winter, rather than what is convenient for the 30 second dash between the car and the office.
Arktis - for example - have been using a very similar design for the best part of 30 years. if it didn’t work, they’d have gone out of business…
I had great fun trying to explain that concept to a (CFAV) instructor on one course, when two of us older volunteers unpacked our DPM Goretex smock liners … we were told we’d overheat if we wore them under our smocks.
The main limiter with the performance of breathable membranes is that they need dry air on the outside to function. If there is standing water on the outside of a Goretex jacket then it will still be waterproof, but it won’t be breathable - it’s why Goretex jackets need a DWR coating.
If you put a Goretex jacket underneath a sodden windproof then it’ll keep the rain out and the sweat in - it works much better if you put it on the outside (and it’s why it has pockets too).
Putting it underneath a sodden jacket will probably be a bit drier than any alternative that still involves wearing the sodden jacket though.
I’ve got to back @angus here - the lightweight waterproof jackets are worn under a windproof smock. They’re issued for regulars to be operational and withstand the worst conditions placed for whatever they do. Not designed for cadets! The small number of pockets are purely meant to compliment the main smock’s storage (on the outside).
To the sweat issue: whilst they are designed to be as breathable as possible, I will agree that it would get sweaty in there. Though I hardly think they would have cause to complain if it’s that wet outside!
And they would rip in no time if these wear subjected to the wear of running with webbing and slings all day…
The fact that it has a pocket flap to access garments beneath is rather evidence that it’s also designed to be worn above other clothing! Depends on the conditions and activity at hand.
Happy to settle with that! Though begs the question does the supervising member of staff on the activity have to make the call on inside or outside waterproof a bit like sleeves up and down
a bit like sleeves up and down