Option 4 Buy proper minibus under 3500kg, upto 14 seats
Questions:
Which options do Air Cadets or insurance companies (not the law) require you to have a D1 licence?
What options require a Section 19 Permit
Can you recommend an insurance broker who understands the requirements - any idea of premiums?
4.What is the situation with asking parents on the civilian committee to drive cadet owned vehicles. Is this possible, if so what needs to be done.
The MOD gets discount if you buy Ford. Tourneo or Transit.
The maximum anyone can drive is 8 passengers, unless they held their licence before 1997 or they have completed the D1 course and have that category on their licence (incidentally it’s free to do the course at Leconfield through the ACO).
It becomes a bit tricky when you start using people with grandfather rights to drive people, especially if they’re claiming pay. A section 19 permit will allow you to do it "not for hire or reward up to 3.5 tonnes. From research I’ve had to do, if someone pays the sqn money for an event and part of that includes a seat on a bus, that could be seen as hire. If they claim pay it could be seen as reward.
3.5 tonnes limits which buses you can drive too. A ford transit is over that weight limit empty!
Kevin Doyle insure us, and they’re really good. I think the guy that ran the company used to be on here, and they certainly know what cadet units do.
No idea about getting civcom parents to drive cadet owned vehicles. I would guess that as a member of the civcom, provided they have a DBS check (which you can get through wing) and they have OC’s permission that should be fine. Check with the insurer?
I would buy an 8 passenger seat tourneo van type jobby for now. It depends how many people you’re planning on moving. If you’ve got a lot of people then save up, get people through the D1 course and buy a bigger bus.
i will only comment on personal experience, and only in how we operate…your insurance, vehicle and drivers will be different and so may not apply.
(FYI we have a 2002 14 seat Transit Minibus, it is rarely filled and on average I would say takes between 6-10 persons out at a time)
as a SOV it is treated as a civilian vehicle and under the “charities law” a none D1 holding driver is permitted to drive the bus providing it is under 3500Kgs.
Our insurance cover permits this clause, others may not and require D1 only…be warned.
unlikely at best.
it will depend on the wording of the insurance policy but as a “group”/(“company”) vehicle you have to be part of the “group” (Sqn) to be a driver.
As such parents are not a viable option (note also if they WERE able to drive, you’d either need a member of staff to escort them, or see proof of a DBS (CRB) check…which if you are going down that route and the parent is that willing to commit why not get them to join as staff anyway?)
CivCom i dont know about. by the nature of their involvement we’ve never had a situation where is has come about to question, but as not formally part of the “Squadron team” i dont think they are covered.
that said i know of Staff from other Squadrons who have borrowed our bus for a weekend/driven the bus on joint weekends so our policy may cover “all CFAV persons” but its not something I have needed to look into personally.
hi Chris,
we have a Sqn Minibus and have the same problems that you may have…
2 Drivers isn’t enough you may think it but it is a struggle unless they do cadet activities all the time if possible get your other staff on the minibus course then it will be more beneficial. also look carefully at your staff are they fit to drive a minibus (mentally, physically and would you let them) and are they going to be around in the long term?? if not then perhaps a Combi-van would be best (option 2).
D1 is for vehicles that are over 8 passengers there for you will only need that entitlement if going for minibus.
Section 19 is a pain in the ■■■■ our sqn minibus has one but to use it the insurance premiums go up substantially and some insurance companies wont recognise it.
I cant remember who is our insurance company but we have it for any driver with a D1 there for anybody can drive parent CivComm as long as it is insured anyone can drive as long as they have a D1
If I were in your position option 2 would be my choice as
you don’t need a D1 to drive so anyone can drive it in the Sqn also your future staff may not have a D1 so you need to think not of just now but in the future
you have a dedicated luggage place…how many weekends away and you see kit stuffed all over the seats or on
cadets knees or even in the aisle the 17seater minibus has now went down to 14 at least with this option you have a proper secure place for the kit and 8 seats mean 8 seats.
if you need to take additional cadets than what fit then other staff can drive their car or a hired People carrier and their kit would probably still fit in the combi-van with out any hassle.
something else to think about… think about the engine size! when our CO bought ours he went for a small engine as if it was a car for driving around town this isn’t it a big lump and when you add 15people and kit it soon adds weight to it, when going away a distance it drinks the fuel and at about 55/ 60MPH in fifth it is struggling going full out to maintain that speed, a better engine would of been better and more economic for what we use it for
We have two vehicles for the Sqn: a 15 seat bus (14 passengers) and a 6 seat crew cab. My feedback would be:
You must have a Permit 19 in place and then comply with your insurance companies requirements. D1 is only required for those drivers which are not of your Squadron - so if you are loaning the van to someone else from another Sqn, they must have D1.
Our insurance company (KD Insurance) rules are that drivers must be B category drivers and over 21 to drive the vehicle. Anything more than that is a bonus. However, I (as OC) insist that Sqn drivers are over 25 with at least 3 years driving experience.
Their MD is an RAFVR(T) and the policy for ACO covers arms and ammunition, fully comp business cover, airfield cover etc etc and as many drivers as you want. It also includes breakdown return to base cover. You will struggle to find that anywhere else.
Premium year one is about £900 if you have no insurance history as a Sqn - comes down annually after that. After 4 years with no claims, you are looking at about £550.
Civ Comm wouldn’t be an issue - although I would recommend they are DBS cleared. They are part of the Sqn establishment and therefore covered by the P19 requirements and insurance.
Parents I would be extremely hesitant about.
Yep:
If you go down the SOV route, contact me and I will hand over all of our orders etc which are all stolen from somewhere else on here
Other Sqns that borrow the vehicle will damage it more than you do - so carefully consider whether that is a good idea
Consider carefully how many seats you actually need and then think about transporting kit.
We bought the minibus to transport cadets but we still had to hire vans to move their gear - which is why we have bought a SWB Transit crew cab (factory fitted crew cab with 6 seats - which arrives tomorrow as it happens) to move kit in as well
If you get a 17 seat bus you will bring all of the D1 license issues along with it and really limit the number of drivers on your Sqn - personally, I would steer clear and get a 15 seat
Ford Transits are pretty good, particularly the newer ones post 2005, and are a good option. Parts are cheap, easy to maintain.
If you get livery for the vehicle, be very careful who you let use the vehicle (i.e. other units) - we have had drivers from other units driving like idiots which have resulted in complaints directly to me because our name and details are all over the vehicle. However, I would argue the advertising value outweighs the reputational risks (and potential security risks as well)
Look at ex-Army Reserve vehicles either through RFCA or the disposal sites - you can get some real bargains
Avoid LDV like the plague - the bottoms rot out and are generally slow and awful
Sort a comprehensive incident Grab Bag out that has first aid kit, hazard warning stuff, disposable cameras, log sheets, torches, basic tool kit etc
Have a Power Bar to assist with wheel removal
Develop really comprehensive wheel removal instructions - with photos - transit wheel removal is harder than it should be
Have an orders folder on the vehicle with a full set of MT Orders, log sheets, risk assessments, insurance stuff, breakdown cover
Put someone in charge of MT stuff so you don’t have to do it - especially vehicle bookings etc
Insist that drivers from other Sqns undergo a basic driving famil session before you let them use it and make them read orders
Crashing the vehicle into a wall is an incident and the incident procedures should be followed We had one nugget who stacked it into a dry stone wall and did a bunch of damage (that their Sqn had to pay for) and they didn’t report it straight away or take any pictures. Their argument was that they hadn’t hit another vehicle so it wasn’t an incident
Right, I think that’s it.
I am off to tell my FS that he is now a Fleet Manager now that we have two
If you get a 17 seat bus you will bring all of the D1 license issues along with it and really limit the number of drivers on your Sqn - personally, I would steer clear and get a 15 seat
[/quote]
Uhh, Xab, you need D1 to drive more than 8 passengers…a 15 seat bus still needs D1?
You may be able to drive a minibus with up to 16 passenger seats using your current car driving licence as long as it’s not for ‘hire or reward’ - there’s no payment from or on behalf of the passengers.
Conditions you must meet
You can drive a minibus within the UK as long as the following conditions apply:
you’re 21 or older
the minibus is used for social purposes by a non-commercial body
you’ve had your driving licence for at least 2 years
you meet the ‘Group 2’ medical standards if you’re over 70 - check with your GP if you’re not sure you meet the standards
you’re driving on a voluntary basis and the minibus is used for social purposes by a non-commercial body
the maximum weight of the minibus is not more than 3.5 tonnes - or 4.25 tonnes including specialist equipment for disabled passengers, eg a wheelchair ramp
you’re not towing a trailer
[/quote]
we do not get “paid” to drive minibuses, we get remunerated to facilitate cadet events. We are not employees so you are not driving for “reward”
You may be able to drive a minibus with up to 16 passenger seats using your current car driving licence as long as it’s not for ‘hire or reward’ - there’s no payment from or on behalf of the passengers.
Conditions you must meet
You can drive a minibus within the UK as long as the following conditions apply:
you’re 21 or older
the minibus is used for social purposes by a non-commercial body
you’ve had your driving licence for at least 2 years
you meet the ‘Group 2’ medical standards if you’re over 70 - check with your GP if you’re not sure you meet the standards
you’re driving on a voluntary basis and the minibus is used for social purposes by a non-commercial body
the maximum weight of the minibus is not more than 3.5 tonnes - or 4.25 tonnes including specialist equipment for disabled passengers, eg a wheelchair ramp
you’re not towing a trailer
[/quote]
we do not get “paid” to drive minibuses, we get remunerated to facilitate cadet events. We are not employees so you are not driving for “reward”[/quote]
OK yes but that’s using a permit 19. And as mentioned above, I have seen it argued that as a cadet pays for an activity, which gives them space on a bus, it can be said that their payment includes a “ticket” for want of a better word, which can be seen as hiring that bus.
We’re not helped by confusing terms used by DVLA, government and others. The easiest thing to do is to go to Leconfield and get a D1 and drive anything up to 16 passengers
[quote=“redowling” post=21369]Every minibus operated by Sqns should have a Section 19 permit. It’s not the ‘alternative’ - it’s a requirement.
It is your exemption from holding a PSV operators licence.[/quote]
But why would you need an exemption from a PSV licence if your vehicle and your use of it does not fall under that category and can be legally driven by a Class B driver?
Section 19 permits will, I believe, lift the MAM limit for D1 licence holders or allow the vehicle to be driven for hire or reward (information based on looking a long time ago)
I also remember a question as to whether the subs levies on cadets constitutes “hire” as being a cadet or member of staff is a requirement to be carried on SOVs as detailed in the vehicle insurance (though policies may vary)
You may be able to drive a minibus with up to 16 passenger seats using your current car driving licence as long as it’s not for ‘hire or reward’ - there’s no payment from or on behalf of the passengers.
Conditions you must meet
You can drive a minibus within the UK as long as the following conditions apply:
you’re 21 or older
the minibus is used for social purposes by a non-commercial body
you’ve had your driving licence for at least 2 years
you meet the ‘Group 2’ medical standards if you’re over 70 - check with your GP if you’re not sure you meet the standards
you’re driving on a voluntary basis and the minibus is used for social purposes by a non-commercial body
the maximum weight of the minibus is not more than 3.5 tonnes - or 4.25 tonnes including specialist equipment for disabled passengers, eg a wheelchair ramp
you’re not towing a trailer
[/quote]
we do not get “paid” to drive minibuses, we get remunerated to facilitate cadet events. We are not employees so you are not driving for “reward”[/quote]
OK yes but that’s using a permit 19. And as mentioned above, I have seen it argued that as a cadet pays for an activity, which gives them space on a bus, it can be said that their payment includes a “ticket” for want of a better word, which can be seen as hiring that bus.
We’re not helped by confusing terms used by DVLA, government and others. The easiest thing to do is to go to Leconfield and get a D1 and drive anything up to 16 passengers[/quote]
[quote]Those applying for a section 19 permit must satisfy the issuing body that the transport services aren’t run with a view to profit, nor incidentally to an activity which is itself carried on with a view to profit.
Organisations that are registered as charities usually qualify. However, a business which makes, or seeks to make, a profit would not normally qualify, regardless of how it uses any profits or income surplus.[/quote]
We don’t seek to make a profit, and covering running costs of the vehicle are allowable.
[quote=“incubus” post=21371][quote=“redowling” post=21369]Every minibus operated by Sqns should have a Section 19 permit. It’s not the ‘alternative’ - it’s a requirement.
It is your exemption from holding a PSV operators licence.[/quote]
But why would you need an exemption from a PSV licence if your vehicle and your use of it does not fall under that category and can be legally driven by a Class B driver?
Section 19 permits will, I believe, lift the MAM limit or allow the vehicle to be driven for hire or reward (information based on looking a long time ago)
I also remember a question as to whether the subs levies on cadets constitutes “hire” as being a cadet or member of staff is a requirement to be carried on SOVs as detailed in the vehicle insurance (though policies may vary)[/quote]
My bold. The permit exempts you from requiring the PSV licence and allows you to accept payment covering the running costs of the vehicle.
[/quote]
That pretty much brings things up to the point I lefty it last time I looked at all this, several years ago
By extension of that quote, that means any 17 seat minibus I get through the Phoenix contract to drive on my D1 for cadet purposes will require me to have a Section 19 permit for the vehicle.
ACP24 Inst 411 is all about S19 permits. I’m not sure if it agrees with that quoted paragraph.
Yes - as the permits are issued to a Squadron, not a vehicle, you just transfer it over. The permit goes with the organisation, not the vehicle.
However MOD regulations do not allow you to drive a minibus on a B licence under a Section 19 exemption, so you must have a full D1 licence and an FMT600.
In that context the licence type ceases to be a concern but the “hire or reward” condition is an issue.
However, as this thread is about an SOV we can sideline that
D1 allows you to drive upto 17 seats, including driver. No permit 19 is required as the Permit 19 is an exemption from needing a PSV licence, which the D1 is
Permit 19 allows non-D1 drivers to drive a minibus with restrictions provided it is not fur hire or reward.
[quote=“juliet mike” post=21384]D1 allows you to drive upto 17 seats, including driver. No permit 19 is required as the Permit 19 is an exemption from needing a PSV licence, which the D1 is
Permit 19 allows non-D1 drivers to drive a minibus with restrictions provided it is not fur hire or reward.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/quote]
God there’s a lot of twaddle going on in here.
D1 permits someone to drive a vehicle with UPTO 16 passengar seats.
Section 19 permits allow certain organisations, including schools, to make a charge without having to comply with the full public service vehicle operator requirements AND without the need for the driver to have a PCV (Category D1 or D) entitlement.
The MOD (via white fleet) don’t like the risk of allowing non D1 users to drive a vehicle with up to 16 PAX seats without training, hence they stipulate D1 requirement (and provide the training free of charge)
SOVs/WOVs (since they are privately owned) can exercise the Section 19 permit in the full capacity and do not require a D1 nor operator requirements.
All SOVs/WOVs need to display a Section 19 permit, regardless of the category that the driver holds - to exempt the driver from the requirement to follow operator regs (eg. tacho). Get stopped by the cops, and face prosecution! Drivers responsibility, no exemtions/defence in law.
We had one nugget who stacked it into a dry stone wall and did a bunch of damage (that their Sqn had to pay for) and they didn’t report it straight away or take any pictures. Their argument was that they hadn’t hit another vehicle so it wasn’t an incident 