Mess Membership

If it is done in the right way, if it becomes redundant, you can have a saleable asset, as opposed to a building in the middle of a larger estate, where the only option is to flatten it, where again, with a bit of investment, as say RAF Stations go out of use, messes could potentially be sold as hotels or pubs with rooms.
Over the years I’ve been to a few office blocks which have been designed so that with a bit of jigging can become retail units, such that you don’t just have a redundant space, ie some floors are shops and some are offices.
I’m sure I’ve seen news reports of turning old offices blocks into flats.

How’s that different to now?

So do they sell them off as a going concern when stations close?

It would depend on the condition and whether anyone wants to buy them.

Plenty of former RAF stations still have original buildings (such as hangars) left.

Hangars a little bit more utilitarian, than other buildings, likewise MQ of all status’.

I don’t see what’s wrong with cadets using JRM and staff using their messes as we are based on the ranks of the forces. Currently there’s talk that the officers and sgts mess in a base in NI will merge but that raises issues on it’s own. When I was reg service I loved the chance to go into a mess without someone of a higher rank being in same place

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There’s nothing wrong with using rooms in a Mess for certain reasons - eg. we used to hold motor club meetings in Coningsby’s Sgt. Mess which included junior ranks simply because it provided an ideal meeting room.

The committee members are met at the front door, transit to the meeting room and then leave afterwards. No drama.

Isn’t the Duxford OM now a conference centre?

Why met at the front door and as I read it led to the room is quite comedic? Are they expected to wreck the gaff if they go on their own? Understandable only for the first visit, so you know where it is, after that, turn up and make your own way.

Because non-mess members are expected to be escorted by mess members at all times. Except for toilet purposes though, I expect.

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Isn’t it because the Mess is someone’s home? I have friends and family who I wouldn’t mind letting themselves into my home, but I wouldn’t allow work colleagues to wander in unescorted.

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This is an extract of the RAF Benson Mess Rules (found on the internet):

SECTION 4 – MEMBERSHIP (REF AP3223 LEAFLET 603)
Types of Membership

  1. Full Members. The following are to be Full Members of the Mess:
    a. All officers of the RAF serving at RAF Benson (see sub-para 2b for personnel on
    detached duty away from their permanent duty station).
    b. All officers of other Regular UK HM Forces serving at or on temporary duty at RAF
    Benson.
    c. All officers of the Commonwealth and foreign forces attached as individuals to the RAF
    and subject to the Armed Forces Act 2006 serving at RAF Benson.
    d. All officers of the RAF Reserve or the Royal Auxiliary Air Force that have entered into a
    commitment for Full Time Reserve Service and are serving or on temporary duty at RAF
    Benson.
    e. All officers of other reserve UK HM Forces that have entered into a commitment for Full
    Time Reserve Service and are serving or on temporary duty at RAF Benson.
    f. Officers covered within sub-paras a-e above who are necessarily accommodated in a
    Mess or at a station other than that at which they are permanently serving or on temporary
    duty are to be Full Members of their duty station Mess and honorary members of the Mess in
    which they are accommodated.
  2. Associate Members. The following are to be Associate Members of the Mess:
    a. Officers of the reserve air forces (other than those on Full Time Reserve Service)
    serving or on temporary duty at RAF Benson. However, officers of the VR(T) who are
    members of a WOs’ and Sgts’ Mess, by virtue of their regular employment, may only use the
    Officers’ Mess when on duty in a VR(T) capacity.
    b. Personnel on temporary duty detachments to RAF Benson, including courses, are to
    become associate (i.e. subscribing but non-voting) members of the Mess. For the duration of
    their detachment, they will be Honorary (non-subscribing) Members of their permanent duty
    mess. The reverse applies to Benson personnel detached away from the station.
    c. All officers of other reserve UK HM Forces serving or on temporary duty at the station
    (other than those on Full Time Reserve Service).
    d. Officers of the forces of Commonwealth and foreign countries, other than those
    covered by sub-para 1c attached to RAF Benson under MOD arrangements.
    e. Officers covered within sub-paras a–c of this para who are necessarily accommodated
    by a station other than that at which they are permanently serving or on temporary duty are
    to be Associate Members of their duty station mess and Honorary Members of the mess of
    the station where they are accommodated.
    f. Retired officers with a recall liability may apply to the Mess Committee for Associate
    Membership with the approval of the Stn Cdr, subject to the constraints at AP3223 para
  3. This category does not include ex-members of the reserve air forces, unless they
    have also served as regular officers in the RAF.
    4-2
    g. MOD civilians and contract staff of officer equivalent status (including those employed
    under ‘retired officer’ (RO) status) serving or on temporary duty at RAF Benson when invited
    by the Mess Committee and with the approval of the Stn Cdr and subject to the constraints at
    AP 3223 para 60312.
    h. Other qualifying civilians, the definition of which for Mess Membership is as follows:
    (1) ‘Qualifying civilians shall mean personnel who are wholly or mainly engaged in
    activities which directly support the Armed Forces of the Crown.’
    (2) Such membership is allowable at the most appropriate Mess and solely at the Stn
    Cdr’s discretion. Spouses, dependents and retired personnel with no recall liability are
    not regarded by the Charity Commission as ‘qualifying civilians’, and are therefore not
    eligible for Full or Associate Membership.
  4. Honorary Members. Honorary Membership of the mess may be awarded as follows:
    a. All officers of the RAF and Full Time Reserve who are necessarily accommodated at
    RAF Benson but serve or are on temporary duty at another unit, or who regularly use RAF
    Benson Officers’ Mess when off duty, but who are Full Members of another Mess, may be
    Honorary Members of the RAF Benson Officers’ Mess subject to the approval of the Stn Cdr.
    b. The Mess Committee, with the approval of the Stn Cdr, subject to the constraints at
    AP3223 para 60312 and with the consent of a General Mess Meeting, may invite the
    following to become Honorary Members of the Mess:
    (1) Officers of other UK HM Forces serving in the vicinity of RAF Benson.
    (2) Important residents living in the neighbourhood or visiting the stn. Where
    Honorary Membership is granted to the current incumbent of specific civic or political
    appointments, the membership is to be recorded in those terms, and membership is
    restricted to one mess on the stn. For the incumbents of such appointments,
    membership will normally be valid only for the duration of their appointment and this
    fact is to be made clear in the letter of invitation.
    c. The names, positions (if applicable) and addresses of Honorary Members, together
    with the periods for which such membership has been granted, are to be recorded
    specifically for that purpose. The list of Honorary Members is to be reviewed annually by the
    Mess Committee and submitted for the approval of the Stn Cdr.
  5. Retired Members. This category includes retired regular officers of the RAF, PMRAFNS
    and Commonwealth Air Forces, that are no longer subject to a formal recall liability, subject to the
    approval of the Stn Cdr and within the numerical constraints at AP3223 para 60312. This category
    does not include ex-members of the reserve air forces, unless they have also served as regular
    officers in the RAF. The list of Retired Members is to be reviewed annually by the PMC and
    submitted for the approval of the Stn Cdr.
  6. Casual Use. All officers of HM Forces (both regular and reserve) visiting RAF Benson off
    duty are to be regarded as casual users of the Mess. Additionally, retired regular officers of the
    RAF, PMRAFNS and Commonwealth Air Forces who do not wish to take up formal Mess
    Membership may use the bar facilities but will not be eligible to use any other Mess facilities, nor
    attend functions except as a guest of the Mess, or as a guest of a Mess Member. Casual use is
    subject to Stn Cdrs retaining the ability to control access for security purposes. This category does
    not include ex-members of the reserve air forces, unless they have also served as regular officers
    in the RAF.

Doubtless these were published before the revised Cadet Forces Commission, but one can substitute “RAFAC” for “VR(T)”. They do throw light on use of the Sgt Mess by VR(T) officers,

The bottom line for me here is the following. Given the cut in numbers across the forces and on stations and bases plus the fact that we have gone PAYD most messes are delighted to see cadet force members just to keep their messes from.going to the wall and to increase profit for the catering company as long as we use the right mess for our rank and abide by the rules

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^^^^^ this

^^^this, and just be respectful of their space and there’s genuinely no issue

If the regulars don’t use or aren’t going to use it, if it has to run as business, let them be run as businesses, with maybe a small private dining area and bar for regulars. With the rest open to all, unless there is a real need for the regulars to use it. A lot of hotels will have functions etc and close doors to all but those attending the functions. It might make messes a lot more viable and if the regulars see being threatened they might use it more.

It’s not so much a case of regulars not wanting to use the messes any more - more that due to modern times, less service personnel live in quarters near to camp, partly due to encouragement to own their own homes and therefore the benefits of having a cheap social club on your doorstep are less attractive.

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absolutely - if you then add the social and professional changes to the Officer Corps and wider society, the Mess is dead.

30+ years ago, relatively few Officers Spouses had professional careers, now its well over half (when i left in 2010, about 75% of the Officers in my Regiment where married to university educated, working professionals. if they didn’t have children, or the children were older, very often the spouse earned more than the Officer.)

Officers are now much more likely to live a long way from the Mess, they are much less likely to be married to a ‘stay at home mum’, and they are much more likely to play a significant role in the childcare arrangements of their children - put that together and the opportunity or attraction of spending a couple of hours in the Mess of an evening is about zero.

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WO’s & SNCO’s have a mess too you know :wink::grin:

well, a room…