Answering Farriersaxe with Bob’s comment almost!
I haven’t done many “traditional” annual camps, but of those I have Staff have been in “transit” accommodation and we’ve eaten in the JRM.
One one occasion the transit because there was no room, the other simply because the Officers mess was the otherside of camp and unworkable.
Steve done the same, but in other camps there is big signs on the JRM… no officers allowed to eat here
So it goes back to my last post whilst we don’t mind it’s not our call it’s the station personnel really who call the shots where we eat
I’ve done quite a few camps, and experienced quite a few variations in accommodation and messing arrangements. Ultimately, it’s what works for the RAF Camp at that time.
Over the years, I’ve made the following observations:
JR mess users do not particularly like officers using their mess.
Sgts Mess members do not particularly like officers using their mess.
Officers mess members do not particularly like other ranks using their mess.
However, pretty much everyone I’ve met has been understanding that, sometimes, needs must.
As long as we recognise that we are guests, and act accordingly, then generally most people will be polite and courteous.
Personally, I always found split messing to be a bit of a pain - OM evening meal timings are usually later than JR and Sgts Mess, so invariably CIs and NCOs would have to run the evening programme alone. Not a problem if it’s sports, but a cinema visit/bowling etc would mean missing your evening meal. Plus, it would mean that Officers could not socialise with the rest of the camp staff, unless there was an all ranks bar on camp.
I think it is 863 being referred to, and no I am not.
But I do think there are some on-line participants making subjective judgements without full access to the facts or even with a will to ignore the truth.
Taken from AP3223- 60305
"Associate members. The following are to associate members of their appropriate mess:
a. Officers,WOs and SNCOs of the reserve Air forces (other than those on a Full Time Reserve Service) serving or on temporary duty at the station. Members of the reserve Air forces are only to pay mess bills pro-rata to the number of days they have served on duty during the month. However, officers of the VR(T) who are members of a WO’s and SGTs mess by virtue of their regular employment may only use the Officers mess at the same station when on duty in a VR(T) capacity.
Isn’t that wrong, as regular Sgts/WOs couldn’t be RAFVR(T) officers and had to be SIs? (and therefore now can’t be CFC)
Some staff work as Civil servants and dependant on their grade can access the mess and be accommodated there
Ah. In which case I can think of at least one person who isn’t held to those rules. Interesting.
It also depends on the station…
I know of civil servant staff being accommodated in the OM on an army base but SM on a RAF base.
It’s a bit of a muddy puddle
It would depend what grade of CS they are. Some higher grade CS are entitled to stay in the OM as part of their JD
A “Sharp scratch”? 
Yes, I concur…
Someone’s got a grump on haven’t they!?
If someone has been afforded membership as a person whose membership would contribute to the standing of the mess then they hold equal status with everyone else afforded the same level of membership.
The voting members of messes are entitled to vote whomever they see fit to which ever level of membership is appropriate iaw with the regulations for the administration of messes.
Remember - it’s their mess; it’s not YOUR mess to decide who YOU think is eligible and who has “wormed their way in”.
I may be wrong, but it rather seems as though you fancy yourself to be more entitled than those you gripe about. Were you not invited to join the club? Is that it?
And to address the other argument going on here… The reason that we use our respective messes on stations is nothing at all to do with some unjustified sense of entitlement. It’s far simpler than that.
We do so because we are told to. Because when on Station we are playing by THEIR rules.
It would be wholly inappropriate to decide that there is no “need” for the RAFAC to have that separation of ranks and to force such a decision of our own onto the use of someone’s mess.
I’d add, too, that despite some problems with some officers in some messes, on the whole if we are to be the ‘light blue footprint’ and credible in RAF officers’ uniform, it’s very helpful for us to stay in the officers’ mess from time to time so we are comfortable in that environment. We have all heard horror stories from camps but by and large, the regulars are welcoming and the volunteers well behaved and appreciative.
Picking up on some of the points here, what would be extremely useful on camps is a room for staff that is away from the cadets and doesn’t get into the nonsense of asking permission for one or other group to go into their respective eateries, which is what the messes have become, as invariably you don’t have a room in the mess building.
This gets around the nonsense of you’re an Officer/CI/SNCO so you can’t just go into this or that building, just because you are or are not…
I am surprised that the forces still persist with the separate mess idea and haven’t gone over to single buildings say like a hotel. You can have larger rooms for people who are permanently based there and smaller ones for transients. If you wanted there could be 3 eating rooms off a central kitchen and maybe separate bars, but have one which was fully communal. This would cut down on the costs of having 3 of everything and having to service all of these.
I think the point is though of maintaining these is the separation of management levels. This is practically non existent in the real world where a CEO may have lunch with the new starter in the shared canteen area but where people are also living together there needs to be space to unwind and relax (and maybe moan to an extent) about their CoC (upwards or downwards) without fear of reprisals.
There are several places where small messes are already combined in this way - RAFC combines the JRM and OASC Candidates’ Mess for example.
Most stations are large enough that it wouldn’t present any significant savings; during quiter times of course messes might be combined. Given that the RAF generally aren’t making any new stations, the costs of physically combining two messes would easily outweigh any cost savings in operation.
Couldn’t agree more, familiarity with the traditions & etiquette of a mess for both Officers & SNCOs usually prevents issues.
I’ve been on camps where we’ve all eaten in the JRM in areas segregated by screens, areas due to low numbers or “refurb” and a number of camps where my bunk has been in a demountable, tent, beds in odd rooms for the duration and fewer in the building allocated to my rank.
In this situation, the kitchens should be or would still need to be checked and cleaned before using after a closedown, to prevent potential problems. Whilst it’s in use the cleaning etc is ongoing.
Which is why a large single “mess” run on a hotel like basis, would reduce costs all round as you wouldn’t have 3 full kitchens with duplicated kit, cleaning staff in 3 places, nor have 3 lots of equipment. Rooms could be used by whoever, whenever, just like a hotel.
The Forces are probably a lot more joined up now in terms of operations and working, and a lot more transient. An arrangement like this could actually better facilitate the more transient nature of the forces.
There could be different rooms for eating and socialising to appease those who like to maintain the, them and us mentality.
The contract could be given to a hotel chain. Catering and living is as far as I can make out was one of the first things to be civilianised.
I know the mess system was designed so that as people moved around it was familiar. But as a veteran of many business trips and courses in hotels of varying sizes you soon find out where you eat and drink, regardless of the hotel.
If they were clever and the security side got around, these could be situated such that if they weren’t needed, they could be sold off as say hotels.
When it comes to fear of reprisals, if everyone is grown up about it, criticisms are taken. It seems to work OK at work. The comments might not be liked, but there are never reprisals. Maybe the senior ranks in the forces, act like they are all knowing, always right and therefore unable to take criticism from anyone under them.
Also there are a number of messes who almost rely on the CFAV members to bolster their functions and keep that part of mess life going as sadly many Regular Personnel no longer live in and/or wish to involve themselves with mess life.
Indeed in camp season it is often only the visiting RAFAC staff seen in the public rooms outside meal times.
Is the joint mess not the way the US do it, separate dining areas and accommodation but a central kitchen. I’m surprised the CRL Contractors haven’t seized on that idea as a money saving exercise.
Many units operate joint messing at weekends for cost saving reasons (Digby for one).
I think you missed my point - it may slightly reduce costs in some cases, but would also require an enormous initial cost to build all of these new messes.
Different personnel are entitled to different standards of SLA, so wouldn’t really work in practice. Not to mention, working out how to separate the different ranks.
And it’s worked out so brilliantly so far… 