Whatever it says in QRs, it seems to me that the ACO will bend the rules. Under Mess rules, senior RAFAC ranks are only allowed to use RAF Officers Mess when they are actually in duty at a Station, otherwise they are supposed to use the Sgt/WO Mess, because RAFAC rank is not equivalent to service. But there are those who have wormed their way into Officers Mess membership and believe they are of equal status even though they will never be called to the colours.
One of these makes a habit of pointing to the rings on his sleeve to put people in their place.
There is also a tendency towards wearing medals, when entitlement is slightly suspect; unfortunately no-one on the Service side seems to want to put them in their place.
Most genuine service people do not make an issue of Rank, respect those above and below them, but most of all have earned the entitlement to retain rank after retirement.
In the RAFAC they are simply a civilian CFAV, but watch how many seem to be appointed to positions within the Civilian support (civcom)
Good to note that despite this there are some genuine people out there.
And yes dining in night was supposed to be a Cadet night, and the higher you push the price, the less cadets will attend, or Mum & dad will baulk - lets face it they already pay subscriptions and some simply cannot afford expensive formal dinners.
I don’t pretend to know much about mess membership (and will certainly bow to those more learned than myself) but I’ve never personally heard that VR(T)\RAFAC officers should eat in the Sgts Mess if not on duty. Is that an RAF-wide rule or just individuals station(s)?
Re: equivalency of rank, I recall reading on the ‘Ask the Team’ page of the CFC Commission, that RC(N) stated that the CFC is a military commission and that CFC ranks senior to regular and reserve ranks, maintain that seniority but are junior to equivalent regular and reserve ranks. Coming from an ex-regular Gp Capt (and quite possibly quoting MOD sources), that statement is at odds with your perception of the situation. Do you have a source for your own quote? Because if so, it should be put forward to prove the MOD wrong.
Then he’s a knob and needs telling so.
Personally? I don’t give two knobs of goat-crap for rank. No-one in their right mind would try it on with a regular unless of course THEY were ex-regular or it was to do with safeguarding.
Quite a sweeping generalisation which infers that all RAFAC officers wear medals to which they aren’t entitled. ‘Slightly suspect’ does not, I’m afraid, cut it. It’s entirely possible that the wearer may have had previous regular service or have been a mobilised reservist who has served somewhere. If you have suspicions, why not engage the wearer in a conversation and find out? I can only assume that those in the services aren’t particularly bothered because they want to get on and enjoy themselves.
Again, a sweeping statement. As I’ve previously mentioned in another post, I’ve met quite a lot of ex-officers who make a big thing about the rank they held in a previous life.
In my nearly 20 years as an officer with the ATC, I’ve never heard anything like that said before. I’ve never read QRs, but I’m certain that there has never been any such things said in any ATC rule book.
Besides, what makes you think that any commission RAFAC staff would be welcome in a the Sgts Mess? The whole point of separate messes is so you can relax without worrying that your seniors are watching.
Your other posts come across as quite anti-officer - perhaps you are letting your personal prejudices cloud your judgement when it comes to wanting to believe so called facts?
i think its entirely certain that this is, to quote the Rt Hon Jim Hacker, round objects…
bloke doesn’t have a scooby what he’s talking about - i also have a vague suspicion he’s one of the CWC members from 683 (Thurston) Sqn - the CWC amassed a huge fund (£80,000) or so, and gave it all to an outside trust/charity called the Salmon Trust. the money never returned, the Sqn folded and everyone - apart from those with new 4x4’s - was left with egg on their faces.
As we now have the CFC which is not a commission into the Reserve forces but a separate organisation who wear the uniform how does that equate to RAF Mess rules which, and it did in my old mess, stipulated to be in the mess you had to be commissioned into HM Regular or Reserve forces or that of an Allied nation.
i think that if the rules do disallow it, the rules will be ignored - no one in the Mess will actually care that the de jure status has changed because the de facto status hasn’t: you’re still members of an MOD sponsored youth organisation, you still have MOD90’s, the Queen still calls you her Officers.
every Mess i’ve been a member of welcomed and hosted SCC Officers, and GVC Officers, and ‘Officers’ from all manner of wierd and wonderful youth organisations - all that mattered was that they had a relationship with the MOD - though we also had Scout/Guide leaders…
rules are for the obeyance of fools and the guidance of wise men - its also why we train officers to make decisions based on the situation as they see it before them.
I can see why you might think I am anti officer, but I have worked with some really good chaps and chappessess. Unfortunately there are one or two who think they are most superior, and having seen how the Regular service Personnel regard them and avoid them, I may be biased, but it does give the entire organisation a bad name.
More so when the RAFAC does not keep these types in check, they can do an awful lot of damage. Ego versus Cadet experience and Cadets lose everytime.
Now back to the Mess rules. In 2016 I found rule 60305, whilst I was researching the Management of RAF Mess Funds. It did exist as there are other parts of relevance to Mess membership and the VRT. However the address now goes to a new generic RAF site, and it is impossible to pull up anything related it the topic. However there is more than one way of skinning a cat! More later perhaps.
However from the Charity Commission website you can see that a Public Inquiry was launched by the CC, into RAF Mess Funds after the theft of 72k of charity money. That was May 2016, but as yet no report. That does not affect or change membership, but I think it is more than coincidental that the rules (management or membership) should no longer remain within the public domain.
But of course retention does matter if one is determined to maintain Mess membership when no longer active within the RAFAC. = a status thing you see even though you might only draw blood on the sharp edge of an envelope.
Looks like it, doesnt it, but I can assure you the rules (which may have disappeared into JSP456 but only Chapter 7 is accessible) were/are very real, with Station Commanders having final authority. All messes are managed by PMC and a Committee, but even the bit about charity management has disappeared, because I was looking at the rules to establish how the Commission related to those funds which have Excepted status, and that information helped considerably.
All services have traditions and all three had specific instruments for the management thereof, including dress requirements and behaviour.
Everything hinges on substantive rank and it is well documented but obviously there is something contentious else you would all have continued access to it.
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What I was referring to, does not affect Camps, because you are then working at a Station and therefore entitled.
I am endeavouring to find out where the evidence has disappeared to, but it is not in an ACP.
Too many things disappearing from public view or withheld under an FOI as release is deemed not to be in the public interest.
It certainly looks like he is, pEp. Sources conveniently ‘disappeared’ from the public domain, vague references to other documents which, it seems, no-one on here has heard of before.
Are you inferring that a VR(T) officer who somehow wangled full mess membership, stole that money? Are you implying that this is what changed those mess rules which have suddenly disappeared from public view?
I haven’t yet heard of a Harry Staish kicking a VR(T)\CFC out of the mess and into the Sgts Mess.
There are quite a few (now) RAFAC members who have drawn blood on things far more dangerous than the edge of an envelope, me old son.
Well, after reading all of your posts, I can only come to one conclusion.
You are a something that they say you feel when having an injection
Thanks for that but if you bother to look at the CC website you will see that there is no way that I can have inferred anything against the RAFAC. Don’t put two and two together and come up with five.
The situation is difficult enough already, but if through my sources I do come up with information you will be the first to know.
And I have worked with a good many RAFAC members who have drawn blood in a far more dangerous fashion, who have all (always) had my total respect, these are gentlemen, but not (your analogy) those who are more deserving of your epithet.
Back to Corps ethos, and another set oF rules out of the window!
RAFAC officers are commissioned, and thus are either entitled to use the officers’ mess or none at all - there would not be a bizzare middle ground where we use the SNCO/WO mess for some bizzare reason.
