Marksmans awards & Grouping

Everyone Shooting and Marksmanship
1

Thought I would throw this open to see what other sqn’s expectations/experiences are, how things work out on the range & if there are any different “processes” that might be of benefit.

Over some L98A2 shoots (25m barrack range), in general I have noticed that comparatively few cadets manage even a 2" group on the first practice of their marksman (MM) attempt; from inspecting tgts for scoring or coaching, I can also say that most fail to achieve a 2" group on their deliberate practice. That’s 50% of the course of fire. It goes without saying that it is essential to get a good grouping score, or else even a Wg MM award (54/70) is out of reach (60/70 = Regional MM), some examples:

2.0" group + maximum 15 shots per 3 practices within the gauge = 0 + 45 = 45
2.0" group + a total of 15 shots per 3 practices within the gauge = 15 + 45 = 60 (statistically unlikely for all 3 other practices within the gauge!)
2.0" group + a total of 14 shots per 3 practices within the gauge = 15 + 42 = 57
2.0" group + a total of 13 shots per 3 practices within the gauge = 15 = 39 = 54 (cut-off for 2.0" group)
1.5" group + a total of 12 shots per 3 practices within the gauge = 20 + 36 = 56
1.0" group + a total of 10 shots per 3 practices within the gauge = 25 + 30 = 55

So, even with a well-zeroed rifle, shooting only a 2.0" group, it’s quite hard to get a MM award - only 2 shots can be dropped from the rapid, snap & deliberate practices. Even with a 1.5" group, only 3 shots can be dropped!

This is certainly not for want of trying for all involved (from Wg Shooting Officer downwards - we have a very strong shooting “ethos” with a Sector Shoot each month + Wg Shoot (short &/or long range) each month too, & lots of experienced staff who are keen to pass on their knowledge. For my Sqn, we run 1 - 2 air rifle range evenings per month on sqn Parade nights too.

I’ve been trying to think of reasons why grouping should be to a lower than ideal standard (especially for “experienced” firers), but I can’t come up with anything concrete; firers are coached where possible & certainly reminded of the “basics” before they shoot. However, for some cadets on my Sqn when they are on the air rifle range, they want to progress to attempting for Wg/Regional MM award as soon as possible. What they get told by me is that will be when they can group consistently (i.e. trying for Sqn MM), only then they can move up a stage. Some show a little frustration, so I sometimes let them shoot a card (2 shots per aiming mark) & prove to them that they have to walk before they can run! Maybe this could be a factor in poor grouping standards for other sqns - too much emphasis on trying to achieve Wg/Regional MM too soon? Is there statistical evidence on actual MM awards over a period to show that more Wg MM awards are made compared to Sqn?

Interesting comparison - MM awards & group/scores for air rifle (5.5m) - & there ain’t much tolerance to play with on these cards (the 10 “ring” is actually a 1mm dot!!).

Sqn MM = 75 points, so say 3 x 0.5" groups (3 x 20 points) & one 0.75" group (15 points). To gain a Wg MM = 170/200 = average of 17 points per aiming mark. Only way to do that is either 10 + 7, or 9 + 8. Using the 7 ring as the worst option, the tolerance to hit the 7 ring & be scored “in” is about 0.85" so you could perhaps make a case that there might be a higher probability of getting a Wg MM award instead of a Sqn one!

Anyway, any other thoughts would be appreciated.

2

Interesting points here.
And I wonder if, there really is an answer?
To be honest, I don’t think this is necessarily a cadet factor. I was a SAA instructor for 19 years in the Army and often soldiers, who have far more regular acquaintance with shooting than cadets, found maintaining marksman standards difficult. Many indeed would mention they were far better shots with the SLR than they ever were with SUSAT equipped L85. So if this is the case, is perhaps there correlation between shooting the No.8 and then going to L98?? It certainly cannot be discounted. Is it because there is such a massive difference between the firing evolution on the weapons. Recycling a No.8 is clearly very different from the semi automatic mechanism on the L98. Does this have an adverse affect despite the lack of adjustment in the firing position.
I also found how much this changed as a an instructor on the L96. Often soldiers taking their sniper course found another massive change in their firing evolution. This time in the opposite direction where movement between shots was more pronounced.
Is it then perhaps, that we do not concentrate the cadets on the true importance of the Marksmanship Principles (MP)? Does the flowing adrenaline overtake their cognitive memory of the MP when firing the L98? Is it fix-attainable? Well, arguably yes, it must be, or we would never get MM in the ACO; either that or we have exceptionally gifted natural firers.
Sometimes of course weather conditions affect the shooter’s capabilities. Often, sadly, it is the quality of instruction. But most of all we should consider the Cadets themselves. Shooting, along with Drill is probably the most discipline orientated activity the ACO do. Dedicated, avid and ambitious shooters will always come to the fore and maybe it the less focussed cadets who we will continually have problems with when it comes to their skills.
Thanks for bringing up a great subject though, hope this progresses well.

3

B*gger - had a long reply drafted, then page on iPad auto-refreshed somehow - disappeared! :frowning:

Try again - I found that the “SUSAT” generation of firers needed a fair bit of coaching on the 4 point aiming theory (eye, rear sight, foresight, target), especially for pistol. Those who had fired SLR before seemed to be much better with the concept (probably as they were older with more shooting experience, like me!).

That said, we did use a non-standard SUSTAT zero that made life very easy with the L85A1; for nearly all distances, POA was fall of shot. Must dig out a copy - although probably not much good for cadet use unless you can guarantee same weapons/SUSATs each time.

Will try 10 mins of MP theory before the next major shoot & also refresh the prone position. However, with a few comments from firers last time, such as - “for my grouping, I fired 2-3 shots before breathing so I could finish first” - there might be one or 2 cadets who won’t improve! One thing that doesn’t change, I find that female cadets seem to pay more attention to coaching & improve quicker than the lads! :wink:

I “dropped” 2 shots when I had the chance for a quick shoot - must try harder! :mrgreen:
[attachment=133]image.jpg[/attachment]

4

Grouping is hard.

In the past I have scored 9/9 at the 400m stage of the infantry ACMT, no problem. Fair enough, that’s aided by SUSAT and prone position, but the whole grouping theory says that I should be grouping no problem at 100-50-25m, which I can’t with any ease at all.

At least you’re not taking the approach of my old shooting ‘coaches’ when I was a cadet and blaming everything on ‘breathing’.

5

[quote=“MikeJenvey” post=14413]

Try again - I found that the “SUSAT” generation of firers needed a fair bit of coaching on the 4 point aiming theory (eye, rear sight, foresight, target), especially for pistol. [/quote]

FYI i like to use EAST as an easy way to remember this and teach to the Cadets

Eye - Aperture - Sight - Target

  • Just a teaching aid I thought I would share

with regard to the topic in question

i have always said to the Cadets the second time an eligible target for MM award is the most impressive, as it shows the first wasnt a fluke (in truth i know it is near impossible to “fluke” a MM) but makes the Cadets think that getting a MM isnt a walk in the park and encourages them to want to do it again…consistency is at the end of the day important in target shooting.
often i find a who Cadet continues to improve over a full days worth of coached shooting, and in some cases gains a Sqn MM…but get that Cadet on the range next time which could be 2 or more month later and they have lost their tight grouping.

(hence the 2nd time is more impressive…shows they know what they are doing time after time)

as mentioned already Shooting is a highly disciplined “sport” within the ATC and like drill if it is not practised then abilty will drop off. Unfortunately unless a Sqn is set up to “specialise” their cadets towards shooting (like 1344 are said to do) then the average three visits to a range a year isnt going to make a MM.

unfortunately the MM principles are not taught with any significance for any weapon. yes it is covered in lesson 5 & 6 of L98 but some would argue that it is too late by the time they are on the range to consider these principles. Mixed in with 7 other lessons the message can get lost, with Cadets concentrating on completing the course of 9-10 lessons to pass a WHT than understanding perhaps the importance and significance of each lesson and message within

Air rifle and No8 are ideal platforms to introduce shooting and then build up the MM principles to Cadets…all of this takes time, much of which neither the Staff nor Cadets have, and only when it is understood (proven by consistent MM eligible targets) can we expect these principles to be followed on the “more exciting” L98 or L81

i agree wholeheartedly that Cadets shouldn’t be progressed on the Wg, Rgn or Corps MM just for the sake of progression. It proves little and is certain the wrong attitude, wanting to be a “badge collector” and can be damaging should a Cadets consistently fail to achieve as they do not have the habit of consistency to challenge their skills

6

Before I look at compiling a “short & sweet” aide-memoire (A5 ideally) for cadets on range days, to save duplication of effort, has anyone else made up anything similar?

I would include bullet points (pardon the pun!) of Principles of Marksmanship, aiming, position, emphasis on breathing, trigger control & follow through. If space permits, might include tips for timings - on rapid details, most cadets fire off in 10 secs & on snap, it’s like volley fire at times!

Just remembered one thing I used to do with newbies for military shooting teams, about one - 2 mins (unloaded rifle of course) of dry firing to get the feel of the trigger; it was very useful. The L98 can be quite “graunchy” & inconsistent on the take up & breaking point of the first pressure - like any “bullpup” weapon, the linkages from trigger to sear mechanism can be an issue (but the Steyr was very sweet - Omanis used it with SUSAT, a winning combination at Bisley, etc). Putting oil (or even moly grease) alongside the link rods if they touch the side of the TMH can help greatly, but doesn’t fit in with the cleaning/lubricating guidelines. :wink:

7

A number of the cleaning guidelines are set in stone which is a shame. Often personal methods are far better. I used many “personal” methods on my L42 and L96 which might be best not discussed here which made trigger break pressure a lot easier.

8

Know the feeling! :mrgreen:

Found the “non-standard” SUSAT zero - which is for information only of course! :wink:

[attachment=136]ZERO1.rtf[/attachment]

9

I’ve complied a few notes - some of the content is from “formal” publications. I don’t want to regurgitate chapter & verse from PAM5c, etc, but hopefully it might be a useful guide to help prompt cadets (& coaches!) to remember some of the basics & perhaps improve shooting skills.

Any comments or suggestions welcome - but I want to keep it A5 size if possible.

[attachment=137]MARKSMANSHIPGUIDELINES-31DEC2013.rtf[/attachment]

10

Useful, handy and perfect as a reference guide. If it’s OK with you Mike I will try this out next week as I am starting some No.8 training. I can give you some feedback if it’s helpful??

11

Please do! All feedback appreciated.

12

There may also an element of how the range has to be run - which of course will have other factors thrown in, such as those requiring L98 WHTs before firing, different types of wpns to be used. etc.

It would seem to be to be the most efficient use of range time to run L98 details in a way to maximise the elements of initial zeroing, firers’ ability & coaching.

So, with “experienced” firers, the suggestion is to run details in this sequence:

Detail 1, Group A - 5 zeroing rds, grouping. Check tgts & adjust sights.
Detail 2, Group A - 20 rds, 4 x 5 rds marksman attempt. Check tgts, take scores & further adjust sights if necessary.
Detail 3, Group A - 20 rds, second marksman attempt. Check tgts, take scores.

Detail 4-6, Group B - repeat sequence of Details 1 - 3.

And so on; this prevents time-wasting (& ammunition expenditure) by having to re-zero after each detail for “fresh” firers, & whilst the previous detail is fresh in their minds, hopefully cadets will remember any coaching aspects! It also allows cadets to be better available for more efficient timing of concurrent activities.

For inexperienced firers (just passed WHT for first time, etc), confirmation shoot:

Detail 1, Group A - 20 rds, 4 x 5 rds grouping.
[This would be a good assessment of their initial ability & give the coaches more to look at - with short inputs from coach at FP if necessary after each 5 rd group. As a side bonus, although not expecting a vast number to be successful, there would be the faint chance that some firers might qualify immediately for a Sqn Marksman award. ]
Detail 2, Group A, repeat Detail 1. Assess ability of firers with potential to move to marksman attempt.

Obviously, all this depends on experience & number of firers, range timings, types of wpns to be fired & ammunition allocation, etc. If only a limited number of experienced firers, it may be better to use 2 x 5 rds zeroing details.

13

Mike,

I am going to produce a small batch of number 29 “Centres” in the form of stickers

as I feel aiming at the tin hat is more condusive to good marksmanship scores

BG

14

BG, I think we have tried that in the past - although a white square aiming mark seems to have good contrast with the beige background & shows a clear POA. Likewise, we have used individual tgts before (single aiming mark or 5 aiming marks) = no big variation in standards that I recall.

Incidentally, I’m aiming (pardon the pun) to put up some more shooting-related posters on our sqn - if anyone has any goodies, links, or sources, please feel free to share! :wink:

15

For those who might have missed them, there are 2 TG policy letters (01-14, 02-14) on Bader concerning air rifle use; one relates to firers using safety glasses, the other to “life” of the plates/springs for pellet catchers.

I asked our parent unit for the relevant NSN in order to acquire safety glasses via the RAF; the stores person has bounced this back to HQAC asking for the suitable type of eye protection from the Defence Clothing Catalogue (JSP 768) in order to make the required/recommended level of protection.

So, expect an up-date of some kind from HQAC…

16

I thought these policy letters were going to be in the shooting documents folder now!

17

Nice of HQAC to let us know about so promptly about safety concerns!

18

i heard that “safetyglasses” could be coming in for Air Rifle although i also heard that there was no “minimum standard” providing eye protection was worn which implies specticle wearers are fine

19

Only if the spectacles worn are confirmed by the wearer as shatterproof.

However, what “force” is expected??

20

Only if the spectacles worn are confirmed by the wearer as shatterproof.

However, what “force” is expected??[/quote]
No more than 12ft/lbs muzzle energy or it is classed as a firearm :slight_smile:
How that translates to force on impact will depend in the ammunition of course.