Marksmans awards & Grouping

Only if the spectacles worn are confirmed by the wearer as shatterproof.

However, what “force” is expected??[/quote]

no you misunderstand. i have been told “as long as protection is worn” and specifically not “as long as protection is worn which is proven to adhere to regulation X/ conforms with EU Directive Y”

we all had a joke about the need to wear them

  1. i have never experience “splash back” while using air rifles event at 5.5m
  2. if you did have it, how would the “return force” be generated to reach the firer
  3. how much “return force” would be need to not only reach the firer but then be able to “strike” those at the firing point to such a level it could cause injury.

Link to TG Letters:

https://sharepoint.bader.mod.uk/QM/TG%20Letters/Forms/AllItems.aspx

The stated parameter is “shatter proof eye protection.” To determine this, you need to ascertain the level of maximum force - I doubt if this relates to pellet splash-back. I would also doubt it this is anything to do with bolt “blow back” either.

The only item I can possibly think of is some kind of compressed air cartridge failure.

Regardless, unless the risk/force has been identified, it isn’t possible to identify the correct level of “shatter proof.” is it for low, medium or high impact energy, as per a typical table linked to EN166 (European Standard)?

Do the glasses have to provide a level of protection from the side & not just the front lenses? The design will vary depending on the required risk.

How many normal spectacles will have a determined level of “shatter proof” impact resistance?? If not acceptable, who will pay for prescriptive shatter proof glasses?

Your basic Sawfly glasses start at about £50!! :wink: Bolle are cheaper at about £35…

If no-one specifies the parameters, you won’t be able to use items such as £1.69 glasses from FleaBay!

i stand corrected…as i say i heard “eye protection” was the only guidelines!

“Heard” & direct quote from the policy letter or document can be very different items within the ACO! :stuck_out_tongue:

They have been shooting 6 Yard Air Rifle in pubs without incident for over 100 years. This is borne out by the total absence of one-eyed Bell Target shooters. Neither the NSRA or the ISSF make any mention of eye protection in relation to airgun shooting as they do not perceive any credible risk.

Any risk is mitigated by the application of ISSF Rule 6.2.4.2

If it’s good enough for the rest of the world…

exmpa

[quote]Neither the NSRA or the ISSF make any mention of eye protection in relation to airgun shooting as they do not perceive any credible risk.
[/quote]

Use of eye protection is recommended ( not mandatory) under NSRA competition rules.

Does not get a mention in the NSRA Probationary Course notes:

[quote]Safety on the Range
 Obey the instructions from the Range Officer immediately
 Never load until told you may do so by the Range Officer
 No occupant of the Range may go in front of the Firing Line towards the stop butts
unless the Range Officer has given permission to do so
 Never handle guns when people are forward of the firing point
 Never place your finger on the trigger until you are ready to fire and the command to
commence has been given
 Always unload immediately if given the order to cease fire
 Always keep the gun pointing down the range towards the targets when loaded
 Always ensure that the gun and magazines are empty after firing
 Always allow the Range Officer to see clearly that all is safe, if for any reason you have
to cease fire
 Lead - Avoid inhaling fumes emitted from the breech of the firearm after discharge
 Hearing - Ear defenders should be worn by all persons on the Firing Point while
shooting is in progress[/quote]

And NSRA Rules and Regulations 1.8.2 uses the word “encouraged” - it is deliberately phrased that way.

What are [color=#0000ff] NSRA competition rules[/color]?

exmpa

T’was something I saw at my civvie range - will have to check validity.

Regardless, the policy letter states that this is all due to “recommendation” from the NSRA…

We have an answer, had to go to HQAC Logs1b for the definitive specification.

As per BSEN 166-1 (low impact) F category (actually equates to energy from a 6mm steel ball of 0.85g at 45m/sec if you really wanted to know!).

Safety Spectacles: 4240-99-192-1600
Over-spectacles (for those with non-shatterproof ordinary glasses): 4240-99-133-4401

Any policy letters which apply to the whole ACO should always be under the TG Letters section of the Controlled Documents Site. We know this does’t always happen, but we do know that the person who’s taking over as ACCSATT Quality Manager has plans to drastically improve the way in which shooting-related documentation is organised and, more importantly, promulgated.

On the subject of Marksmanship Awards, some work was undertaken last year to re-jig the marksmanship syllabus and introduce a series of LFMT lessons in the same vein as those in AOSP. This was put on hold when multi-positional shooting was introduced, as it’s having a big impact on the CISSAM competition shoots, which would form a part of the LFMT syllabus for the L98 and LSW.

The regular forces derive their syllabus of LFMT lessons from a defined Operational Requirement for marksmanship. Once the required standard is defined, a syllabus is designed which, on completion, allows a soldier or airman to meet that standard.

For the cadet forces, the closest equivalent to an ‘operational requirement’ is a high score in the inter-service competitions at CISSAM and ISCRM, and the equivalent competitions for small-bore shooting. The current intention is to use these competitions as an ‘end-point’ and design a progressive syllabus to meet them. As with the AOSP lessons, each lesson would have a performance standard which, if met, allows the cadet to progress to the next lesson. One idea discussed was the awarding of marksman badges on completion of certain parts of the syllabus - a cadet might gain his Squadron marksman badge on successful completion of LF lesson 3, for instance, and his Wing badge on completion of LF 5. Higher-level badges such as the Corps marksman could be awarded on completion of a cadet equivalent of the ACMT.

Having said all that, we’re acutely aware that such a system such might introduce enormous complexity into the job of organising wing-based LFMT. What happens if you have a bunch of cadets arrive at a Wing Shoot at varying stages in the syllabus?

As we said, work on this has largely been put on hold, although we know that the Shooting Development Team (SDT) are doing some work where this relates to small/fullbore target rifle shooting. We’d not expect work to begin again until early 2015 and when it does, rest assured that there’ll be some form of consultation period before any massive changes are made to the marksmanship syllabus.

On the subject of safety goggles, I’m afraid that’s outside our area of expertise.

Hmmm, that will be “interesting” to work through - how much would the standard of shooting be taken into account? As you say, it would be awkward to run a range day considering different experience levels, there would a lot of practical difficulties to overcome. It’s hard enough sometimes with 2 - 3 different weapon types & associated requirements.

With cadets, surely they don’t need the “O” in AOSP? :wink:

Tailor the SP for what will work for them perhaps?

Hmmm, that will be “interesting” to work through - how much would the standard of shooting be taken into account? As you say, it would be awkward to run a range day considering different experience levels, there would a lot of practical difficulties to overcome. It’s hard enough sometimes with 2 - 3 different weapon types & associated requirements.[/quote]

That’s one of the reasons there’s so much work involved in this. In theory it’s a simple exercise to design a suitable training progression, but to ensure that progression fits with the reality of cadet shooting is much more difficult!

Perhaps we could call it ACOSP :slight_smile:

The SAAI (& other cses) for 2014 & into early 2015 are listed here:

https://sharepoint.bader.mod.uk/CTT/default.aspx

Bought a couple of THESE - seem to be of reasonable quality, & should last longer than flimsy home printer options! Much quicker than swapping from one separate circle to another, especially for our air rifle range.

Not sure if FleaBay link is working, otherwise search for “CADET FORCE TARGET SHOOTING GAUGE”

[ebay]http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/260363597921?_trksid=p2060778.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT[/ebay]

I’ve got one of these, only problem i found is that it doesn’t have the correct size circles to score groupings, if it had a 7mm, then would be ideal. It’s great for small & full bore at 25m.

Certainly for air rifle, I think I’ve seen one 7mm group in 2+ years! Bearing in mind that a .177 pellet is 4.5mm (& probably cuts a fractionally larger hole in the tgt (say 5mm in total), then to get a 7mm group = only 2 mm tolerance!!

Probably close to the rifle + pellet accuracy limitations anyway, even if bench resting! :wink: