Lgbt

Cadets Ask the Staff
21

Admiral,

The reason I said that it was nonsensical is because REQUIRING female staff for female cadets is itself, nonsensical. This is highlighted by the existence of gay cadets who don’t require their own staff-cover of whatever flavour. The other thing that makes a mockery of the situation is that I’ve seen many examples of female-only staff cover for male cadets and nobody bats an eyelid, let alone demand male staff cover. There are a couple of squadrons in my wing with only female staff and WHQ is entirely disinterested (while simultaneously trying to poach one of my female staff to provide ‘female staff cover’ for another squadron with only male staff).

Other organisations, such as the Scouts and education authorities, with overwhelmingly female staff, make no such restriction or requirement, as quite simply, they would be extremely hard-pressed to find male staff cover for male youngsters.

Instead, they take the entirely sensible view that staff are staff, regardless of gender or sexual orientation.

22

Scrinson. You are wrong. In the nicest possible way. You attitude is outdated and totally unacceptable in the modern world, but you have done a very good job of illustrating my point.

If a cadet has gender dysphoria and wants to be identified as a girl, they would say in fact that they are a girl, then how do you react? There should be guidance on this and as far as I am aware, there isn’t.

Your chosen comparisons are prejudiced and, frankly, insulting.

Like I said, the ATC’s solution to these issues, and the one you are putting forward, is to ignore them because it is all too complicated otherwise. I agree that it is horribly difficult and complicated, but that isn’t acceptable.

23

Gender identification has nothing to do with sexual preference. Especially for us.

Leaving aside issues of gender alignment for a moment…

If a male cadet is gay, does that mean they should be supervised by a female member of staff?
Why?
Conversely female for cadets.

Equally, should a gay male member of staff only supervise female cadets?
Why?

How does sexuality make any difference to supervision?
I’m straight. Does that mean that male cadets are ‘safer’ with me than with a gay male staff member?
Does it mean that male cadets are ‘safer’ with me than female cadets are?
No. Of course it doesn’t. Because cadets of either gender are safe around us. That’s the whole point. Sexuality doesn’t come into this.

It’s about approachability over particular issues. Female staff are on hand for female cadets to talk to about female problems; likewise male staff for male cadets.
Outside of that we are all on hand for cadets of either gender to speak to whichever staff member they feel comfortable.

Gender alignment is a different and deeper subject.

24

GOM, good point. Well made and I agree.

TL. I am a sweet potato.

No I am not wrong. Touching up kids is unacceptable. Me trying to get my head round what essentially is a mental health issue, is not unacceptable.

How are my comparisons prejudicial? Are they not all mental health issues? And how can they be insulting?

Someone thinks their body is too fat. They get aneroxic and harm themselves. We dont encourage it.

Someone thinks their body is too small. They do weight lifting, steroids and harm themselves. We dont encourage them.

Someone thinks they are a dog. They bark at random things and sit on their hands and knees and harm themselves. We dont encourage them.

We dont encourage sociopaths to torture.

We dont encourage suicidal people to kill themselves.

But as soon as someone (regardless of gender) says they are the opposite sex when quite clearly biologically they arent. Its all fine. Strap on a skirt. Mutilate your body. Have some hormones…

This is the whole problem with this line of topic. I am fed up and sick to the back teeth of being told what I should find offensive. And how I should think and what I should say.

If you want to go dress up like a girl. Great. if thats what makes you happy. Great. but dont go ramming it down peoples throats like its normal. Because its not.
However that being said. I dont think people should be persecuted for it. If thats what nakes you happy. Fine.

We are not qualified for that kind of guidance. Nor should we be getting involved. Thats an issue for Parents/GP/pyscologists.

So please. Enlighten me. I dont understand. Tell me whats so different about this?

I am not saying this all out of spite or hatred. I genuinely just dont understand.

25

[quote=“wdimagineer2b” post=23879]It’s about approachability over particular issues. Female staff are on hand for female cadets to talk to about female problems; likewise male staff for male cadets.
Outside of that we are all on hand for cadets of either gender to speak to whichever staff member they feel comfortable.[/quote]

Yet education authorities, the Scouts and others don’t feel that this is an issue. In 25 years I’ve found that cadets of any flavour will choose to talk to the staff-member that they trust the most, absolutely regardless of gender.

The finest ‘OIC Tampons’ of my experience is male… :worthy:

26

That’s exactly my point.

We should have staff of each gender available so that they can choose to pick the person they’re most comfortable with.
It’s to give the option.
I’d like to hope that I’m fairly approachable and I’ve had cadets of both genders talk to me about various things; but I certainly wouldn’t be surprised if a young lady would prefer to have a female to speak to about certain things.

If you’ve got two female staff, one who likes men the other likes women… It makes no difference at all when a female cadet is suffering with period pain or something. Gay or straight they’ll both be better able to advise than the average man.

The suggestion that a gay member of staff shouldn’t be able to supervise cadets of their own gender is a suggestion that somehow the cadets aren’t safe with them. Which is of course absolute tosh!

27

[quote=“RearAdmiralScrinson” post=23880]
But as soon as someone (regardless of gender) says they are the opposite sex when quite clearly biologically they arent. Its all fine. Strap on a skirt. Mutilate your body. Have some hormones…

This is the whole problem with this line of topic. I am fed up and sick to the back teeth of being told what I should find offensive. And how I should think and what I should say.

If you want to go dress up like a girl. Great. if thats what makes you happy. Great. but dont go ramming it down peoples throats like its normal. Because its not.
However that being said. I dont think people should be persecuted for it. If thats what nakes you happy. Fine.

We are not qualified for that kind of guidance. Nor should we be getting involved. Thats an issue for Parents/GP/pyscologists.

So please. Enlighten me. I dont understand. Tell me whats so different about this?

I am not saying this all out of spite or hatred. I genuinely just dont understand.[/quote]

A lot of people far better qualified than you or I say it’s different, and I am inclined to defer to their expertise.

I may have my own, personal misgivings, but this isn’t the place for them.

Your suggestion that someone suffering from gender dysphoria is the same as you declaring that you are a sweet potato is insulting and offensive. I’m not sure how you can describe it any other way.

That said, there is nothing for us to debate here. You are wrong.

[quote]Gender identification has nothing to do with sexual preference. Especially for us.

Leaving aside issues of gender alignment for a moment…

If a male cadet is gay, does that mean they should be supervised by a female member of staff?
Why?
Conversely female for cadets.

Equally, should a gay male member of staff only supervise female cadets?
Why?

How does sexuality make any difference to supervision?
I’m straight. Does that mean that male cadets are ‘safer’ with me than with a gay male staff member?
Does it mean that male cadets are ‘safer’ with me than female cadets are?
No. Of course it doesn’t. Because cadets of either gender are safe around us. That’s the whole point. Sexuality doesn’t come into this.

It’s about approachability over particular issues. Female staff are on hand for female cadets to talk to about female problems; likewise male staff for male cadets.
Outside of that we are all on hand for cadets of either gender to speak to whichever staff member they feel comfortable.

Gender alignment is a different and deeper subject. [/quote]

All good additional points, and totally worthwhile. My original post was directed at the staff who do believe that cadets of either gender aren’t safe around all staff… which is a pretty disturbing world view, really.

I don’t think anyone has really addressed my scenario of the girl forced to sleep in the same room as her bisexual peer, yet… she was as uncomfortable with that as being told to sleep in the same room as a male cadet and was ignored because it would have meant acknowledging the sexuality of the second girl (who was ‘out’, don’t forget). How is that the right outcome?

28

Heres how that situation would have gone down.

Said uncomfortable straight cadet would ask to move accomadation.
The bi-sexual cadet would claim homophobia and that its insulting and wrong. (probably go on about oppression and how they dont, but secretly do want special attention.)

Staff would end up on disciplinary action for being homophobic and get court martialled and removed from the ACO

Local news would get hold of story and brand the ACO a homophobic, right wing hitler youth style organisation.

ACO gets given a new uniform with pink berets and rainbow sashes to attract more of the LGBT scene.

What can you do? Anyone speaks up about this making them incomfortable gets branded a homophobe and told to get over it and how its 2015.

I have several openly gay friends and they are top blokes and girls, but thats their private life, they dont feel the need to gob off about it.

I have however had to resort to physical force to remove a gay person from my personal space who just wouldnt get the idea, which could have been seen as sexual harrassment if it was a male onto a female.

29

[quote=“RearAdmiralScrinson” post=23885]Said uncomfortable straight cadet would ask to move accomadation.
The bi-sexual cadet would claim homophobia and that its insulting and wrong. (probably go on about oppression and how they dont, but secretly do want special attention.)[/quote]

Where on earth are you getting this idea from? I agree there are individuals in the LGBT ‘community’ who often make something of nothing, but to state with such authority that that’s how the situation would have gone down is tarring everyone with the same brush and unfair.

I’m gay but I keep it very private because I don’t see it as anyone else’s business but my own. If I was the bisexual cadet in that scenario then yes I’d probably feel a little hurt that the person had failed to look beyond my sexuality, but that’s their problem and not mine; besides, having a room to yourself is great. Obviously I find some of my male friends and colleagues attractive, but that’s no different to a straight person working with a female they find attractive; you deal with it and move on.

You strike me as very old-fashioned and Jeremy Clarkson’s recent metaphor of dinosaurs and extinction comes to mind.

It is sexual harrassment.

I’m glad you’re taking a sarcastic tone with this all though, realising you aren’t straight in your teens is terrifying; trust me.

1 Like
30

Because I have seen it too many times. Along with the race card, and the female card.

Congratulations, I bet your sexuality does absolutely nothing to hamper nor improve you as an instructor.

In that similar vain, why cant I share accomadation with females?
Why cant you look beyond my hetreosexuality ans accept that I may find female instructors within the ACO attractive, we can all deal with it and move on.

I am glad you agree it is sexual harrassment, yet I still was the one made to look like an outsider or the villain in that situation.

Gender is a biological trait.

If your mind does not compute with your biology, be it gender, muscle dysmorphia, anerexia, race or what animal you are,
Then it is a mental health issue, no?

31

RearAdmiralScrinson, courtesy of The Last Leg…

[color=#ff0000]Sorry Perry, had to remove that in the interests of fairness.[/color]

32

Cheers, to be honest I’d be worried if it did.

[quote]In that similar vain, why cant I share accomadation with females?
Why cant you look beyond my hetreosexuality ans accept that I may find female instructors within the ACO attractive, we can all deal with it and move on.[/quote]

Because heterosexuality is the prevalent predilection in the vast majority of cases. As posts in this thread have highlighted, we can’t realistically accommodate (note sp.) for every single sexuality and identity, as that would be virtually impossible. Therefore, the only system that is viable is to separate cadets based on the most common division (i.e. separate male-female as most are straight). Of course this is where the issue of “what are we going to do about the gays?” crops up, and the analogy of ‘dealing with it and moving on’ has to come in.

But what do you do when someone doesn’t like that? Well, I’ve had it before where a lad has taken exception to me showering with him in a rather large shower block, that he didn’t want me to look at him in his birthday suit. Sadly he voiced this loudly knowing I was in earshot without talking directly to me about it, and I ended up waiting until he - and everyone else - had showered and then entered on my own; it was deeply humiliating for me but it was a more logical reaction than getting all upset and calling him out on it.

So these sorts of situations - like the hypothetical room-sharing scenario - are occurring, although hopefully they are decreasing with time. I don’t think this can be solved with a set of over-arching rules imposed by an authority such as HQAC, rather than perhaps empowering staff to use their common sense and good judgement. It’s likely not everyone will be happy with any solution that is reached in these matters, but I suppose a part of growing up is learning to tolerate others.

[quote]Gender is a biological trait.

If your mind does not compute with your biology, be it gender, muscle dysmorphia, anerexia, race or what animal you are,
Then it is a mental health issue, no?[/quote]

I’m sorry, I really don’t know what you’re getting at here.

Are you arguing for argument’s sake or is this what you truly believe? Either way, I can’t work out if you’re being sincere or just a troll.

33

[quote=“Stand Out” post=23895]
Because heterosexuality is the prevalent predilection in the vast majority of cases. As posts in this thread have highlighted, we can’t realistically accommodate (note sp.) for every single sexuality and identity, as that would be virtually impossible.[/quote]

And thus answers the original post of this thread.

The gender issues paragraph was more directed to Tango Lima… in which case if a dog was born in a stable and someone puts a saddle on it, does it make it a horse?

34

I think this is the problem with people who say BTW I am or make something of their ‘difference’, they feel they can fully disassociate themselves from the situation by a statement like “it’s their problem not mine”. People expressing their difference should fully understand their difference isn’t going to be fully accepted or understood by everyone and maybe never by some, regardless of whatever is imposed legislatively and they have to get on with that as well.
I do feel that we say we have freedom of speech and expression, but we don’t in the modern era if what we say or write or do upsets minority groups, unless the minority group happens to be ‘right of centre’ or regarded as ‘posh’, such as the hunting fraternity.

On the Jeremy Clarkson reference, I saw a line the other day saying that he is middle class, middle aged, white and male and they are one of the only groups in modern society where making all manner of outlandish comments, remarks against them and generally treating them poorly is allowed without fear of retribution from any quarter. If I’m honest society needs more people like him to keep it grounded. I am a fan of the man and always have been. Sometimes my wife and kids say me and him sound too alike.

35
  1. Warning, no personal attacks.
  2. People need to stop trolling or I’ll remove their posts and issue ban points.
36

I think what everyone is trying to say is that the situation is far from perfect.

Depending on personal inclination, viewpoint of others & the existing rules, someone, somewhere could end up feeling uncomfortable. It would seem that difficulties are compounded by the type of accommodation available to cadets/staff, typically multi-occupancy barrack block rooms (or tents!) - whereas standard RAF accommodation is normslly single person.

37

What was the email she gave for cadets again?

38

[quote=“RearAdmiralScrinson” post=23874]

Answer me this.
A cadet comes to you with this whole gender dysmorphia…How do you react? Tell them they can wear a skirt and “identify” as a girl?

Another cadet comes to you with muscle dysnorphia… would you hand them a protein shake and tell them to do more weights maybe even inject some steroids for them?

A cadet comes to you and tells you that they identify as a Dog… do you pat them on the head and say good do and make them fetch their beret?

I mean honestly. Wheres the line?

Wow some people are gay. You want equality. you get treated the same as everyone else.
Dont then kick off about wanting special treatment.

From now on. I will identify as a sweet potato.[/quote]

I would strongly suggest that you answer with a tiny bit of honesty but more tact and empathy that you show on this thread.

You should tell that Cadet that you are out of your depth but you will find someone better equipped to support them - and then go do that.

That would be my recommendation for how you deal with any trouble any cadet comes to you with because whatever your personal opinion on their situation or issue they have reached out for help and guidance and if there is one thing they don’t need its judgement and mockery from the ill informed.

1 Like
39

This then begs the question just how prepared are any staff in the Corps to deal with any situation, including such as in this thread?

Some of us older ones who’ve got children and had to deal with a multitude of situations maybe or feel a little better equipped to deal with things. You’d need to go some to shock me.

Corps should be giving us the appropriate training and guidance and lists of organisations we can refer people to. This is where I’d rely on my Padre.

40

[quote=“glass half empty 2” post=23923]This is where I’d rely on my Padre.[/quote]Perhaps, but I’d hesitate to seek advice on issues of sexuality from an adherent of any religion - plenty have tried and have received a polarised opinion in return.