Sorry if this is the in the wrong place, thought this was the most suitable.
In my Contingent there are some Cadets who have been giving a fellow NCO some grief because they tell him that ‘technically you can’t tell us off because we’re Army and you’re RAF’.
Whilst we all know that this is not the case, as a suitably ranked NCO of any section should be able to allowed to give ‘commands’ or ‘a telling off’ to any cadet - if the situation deems it to be correct, ie not just mindlessly bullying other cadets because they look funny in their different uniform.
My main question; Is there a JSP that states that an NCO of one section is able to use their rank in an equivalent format in other sections? (or similar)
Our CCF is relatively small with only two sections, CCF(A) and CCF(RAF), this particular NCO had been asked by the CSgt Instructor Cadet who was teaching a lesson to help him and make any comments as felt necessary. At the end of the lesson, said NCO gave his opinion and without singling out anyone, made the comment that the group needs to stop talking and start listening. This group seemed to take offence and then later on made the comment of ‘technically you can’t tell us off because we’re Army and you’re RAF’.
These cadets don’t seem to know what a Tri-Service base is!
I’m sorry if this post is rather jumbled about, this is my first post on this forum.
All cadet NCOs are granted their authority via the OC, so if there’s an issue with cross-section authority then an edict from him/her is probably the simplest solution.
Its probably in a JSP, but I don’t have the reference to hand. I do know however it is stated in each of the QR of each service. Below is from QRRN
Under the provisions of the Armed Forces Act 2006 when members of one Service are co-operating with one or both of the other Services they enjoy like power of command over members of another Service as the members of that Service of ‘corresponding rank’ insofar as power of command depends upon rank or rate. The expression ‘corresponding rank’ is defined in the Acts by reference to Queen’s Regulations. Thus when members of different Services are acting together, the superior officers of one Service become, in accordance with the scale of corresponding ranks prescribed by these Regulations at J. Table 3-1 below, superior officers of members of the other Services of lower corresponding rank or less seniority and can, consequently, give lawful commands to them. These provisions and these circumstances do not, however, bestow upon any member of one Service the power or right to assume command over any body of HM Forces or over any ship, aircraft, unit, formation or establishment of another Service unless it is specifically placed under their command.
And the relevant table
As you can see it is specified in the Armed Forces Act… Don’t think the little darlings can argue with that!
Yes this is for the actual forces, can probably guess its never been written down for the Cadet Forces as its ultimately petty squabbling and power struggles but this should illustrate the situation to them.
Basically as stated it’s really an internal matter. I would though bring it to the attention of your Contingent Commander - if it were one of my cadets I would certainly want to deal with it. I run a tri-service contingent and it’s the cadets’ job to know the ranks. And how hard is it to know a CSgt is the same as a FS when they wear the same badge!
ccf_kid, that table is completely inaccurate. There is so much wrong with it that it hurts my eyes! It looks like it was drawn up by a cadet in the SCC/RMC with a chip on his/her shoulder about the low ranks. If an RMC Cadet Sergeant thinks he/she is going to walk over a Cadet CSM at any point, they are going to get laughed at or attacked with a pace stick.
I have given the page a quick edit to improve it, but the kid who wrote it will probably just change it back.
One slight point is that OR-5 is not used, at least not anymore - it might have been back when the Armed Forces Act was introduced. Officially, All “Sergeant” or equivalents are OR-6.
You’re right, I was in pain when I saw that table too.
The CCF(RN) has no ranks above PO; it’s the same as the SCC. But that doesn’t make the ranks in any way ‘equivalent’ to higher ranks in the other sections. Historically I believe it’s because the RN assumes all CCF RN sections will be small, and a PO is a high enough NCO rank for the head of a section of 15-30 cadets. What they’ve not considered is the possibility that a RN cadet might be ‘head of corps’ or equivalent title i.e. in charge of an entire contingent of 200 or more. We refer to our head RN cadet as ‘Coxswain’ but that’s not a rank, it’s a post. When I have RN heads of corps I make them a CUO in order for them to outrank the heads of the others sections, but we don’t use that rank generally as I don’t think anything above CWO/WO2 is appropriate for any cadet generally in my CCF of 170-190 cadets. I know the ATC have CWOs in charge of squadrons of 20-30 cadets but I don’t consider that justified… my heads of Army (100+) and RAF (50-60) cadets are usually CSjt/FS rank, no higher and sometimes lower.
WRT having CWO’s in a unit with only 30 cadets surely it depend on what you are using them for. When I have a CWO I treat them as a member of staff, they will have a full staff role and will be expected to do all of the work that goes with that role. I’ve had a CWO as my Adjutant when I was short of Staff and she did the whole role (better than the CI she replaced might I add).
Ok, I have removed the higher ranks. Let’s see how long it stays before the original author has a hissy fit and turns it back.
100 is a nice size for a Cadet CSM, why not have one?
It is a bit silly trying to compare ranks anyway as the different Cadet Forces have different ways of doing things. If I was a Cadet RSM I would be a bit insulted if a RMC Cadet Sergeant came up to me and tried to imply that we were of equivalent rank!
CCF is very easy as both the Army and RAF have similar rank structures so no issues there really. RN a bit more difficult as they only go up to PO, but I’m no expert there and there is no real worry if you don’t have a section
It isn’t really a worry as the PO will still be the equivalent of a sergeant, and it is that equivalency that will be used whenever it is necessary to work out such things. It won’t come up often, but still…
Having the rank structure stop at PO doesn’t magically make then the equivalent of a Cadet RSM. To put a bit of perspective on it, you can have a PO in a unit of ~20 cadets. A Cadet CSM will be one cadet in a company of ~150 cadets and a Cadet RSM will be one cadet out of a unit of 700+ cadets.
They aren’t the senior CSM - they are one rank above CSM. If they were the senior CSM you wouldn’t have a CSM and RSM in the same company, but you do, and it might not actually be the senior CSM who gets it. I actually have the cadet CSM and RSM at my detachment as well, so snap.
