ID cards for CI's

Note: Our Squadron shares premises with the ACF, the ACF being the senior partner.
Possibly a bit of an old chestnut, expense aside, can someone supply me with a cogent reason as to why the ATC does not supply CI’s with some form of official identity document/card.
The lack of of some form of official identification has in the past no really been an issue. However; recently I was requested to vacate the premises by the ACF CO on the basis that I had no form of MOD ID, his request was firm but polite.

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Leaving aside my thoughts on what you’ve just said re getting ID’d by the ACF, this was a topic of conversation between staff earlier.

The general consensus was we couldn’t come up with a reasonable excuse as to why CIs don’t have ID. According to a CI of old, non uniformed staff did used to have ID, but this was stopped years ago.

I don’t know why the ACO haven’t done their own version of the MOD90.

Sorry, I know this doesn’t answer your question. But you’re not the only one pondering that.

There are, sadly, two reasons - firstly cost: CI’s make up half the adult staff, regardless of the rights and wrongs of it, if CI’s were to be issued the same MOD90 as, for example, ATC SNCO’s with whom we share exactly the same relationship to the MOD, then the ACO’s (or whoever it is who ends up paying for this stuff…) costs would double overnight.

The really sad one is the second - its because, despite the rhetoric, the ‘just a CI’ thing is as alive and well in the ATC of 2016 as it was in 1996 or 1976.

Personally I’m of the view that the second is the most important - the money problems the ATC/MOD has are relatively new, yet the refusal to issue MOD90’s (or something that does a similar job…) is not.

I can’t see any excuse for not issuing all staff with an ID card. We live in times that exceed security tetchiness that didn’t exist during ‘the troubles’ and if staff are expected to go to military establishments they should have the proper ID. It is ironic that I’ve been on camps and seen all manner of civvie contractors with proper ID cards

Now you can pick up ID card makers for next to nothing and produce them as easily. We get an ID card at work, email a photo and away you go, so why the ATC/MOD put up resistance like they do is a mystery. It could be devolved to RHQs (gives them a reason to exist) to produce, so they can at least feign some level of security wrt production.

Unfortunately I can see some using an ID card bar for CIs as a way of making people go into uniform, as said “the only a CI” line is still disgustingly prevalent in the organisation.

I don’t think the problem exists with the organisation, it will be defence security who won’t want to accept any Micky mouse ID cards on their turf. Just give them a MOD90 as a “civilian”. Spouses and children of can get them with little vetting.

I don’t see any suggestion of ‘mickey mouse’ cards, unless the cards given to civvie contractors are ‘mickey mouse’.

I think the problem lies in a reluctance of HQAC to push for CIs getting official ID cards as it gives them official recognition in the organisation. CIs to higher organisation (even at Wing level) are a necessary evil, as they know sqns would vanish without trace if they relied on getting enough people in uniform, but have everyone in uniform and costs spiral, at a time when the need is to cut costs.
So better off all round just trying to ignore remonstrations from CIs as best as they can. It is interesting that the suggestions from the cadets who went to Cranwell were all seen as wonderful, like allowing them to go into uniform with no restrictions several years after leaving, yet I get the impression that the one for CIs was treated as a this is how it is and now go away. When you effectively poo poo your largest group of staff, you are playing with fire.

I was referrring to locally made ones. No officially supplied ones.

The ‘getting CI’s into uniform’ is something I’ve experienced first hand - and it’s happened to me in the 90’s and then again when I came back in 2010.

One of the things I’m good at, and enjoy doing, is building relationships with regular and reserve units and military facilities and gouging those relationships for every bit of gear, support, use of resources and providing experiences for cadets that I possibly can - its why my sector has enough gore-tex, softies, sleeping bags and Bergens for all, why my cadets have fired, and done the plotting for, 105mm light guns, why my cadets have embedded into a UAV Battery on exercise, and lots of little bits and bobs that make cadet life that much more fun, and make being a CFAV that much more rewarding. The ‘however’ is that I have fun and games pretty much every time I pop along to scrounge or schmooze because when I get the gate, L/Cpl Blogs is understandably perplexed as to why, if I’m a member of an MOD sponsored youth organisation, I don’t have any MOD ID.

I should note that I’m just as likely to have this experience on an RAF gate as I am on an Army gate or an RM or RN gate…

I can assure you that when I chat to my WHQ about this - which I do whenever I see them, firstly because I wanted a solution, and latterly because I know it winds them up a treat, I get a ‘well, if you went into uniform you wouldn’t have this problem…’ answer.

(A word that looks like the name of a Danish King of England in the 11th century, famous for getting his feet wet…)

RC(N) is leading the way with regards to the new Cadet Force Commission, and he today issued a brief clarifying a number of points on that. In it, he mentioned the issue of CI ID cards:

  • Appointed Civilian Personnel (Civilian Instructors and Chaplains) will receive a new membership card which will be used to validate their identity and role as members of the Air Training Corp or Combined Cadet Force (RAF).
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Since returning my 1250 I felt like I entered a netherworld in terms of my identity in the organisation.

Despite all of the rhetoric, the higher organisation doesn’t respect CIs as a body (the constant badgering to go into uniform is evidence of that) and if getting an official ID card is one of the consequences of the changes, it will be possibly the single most positive move in the Corps’ history, albeit a part of its death throes.

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Do we think this will be like a MOD90 and have the same authority when it comes to being escorted on bases etc, or just an alternative to carrying your passport everywhere?

Wot 'e sed.

I think the chances of 5,000 CI’s getting issued a MOD90 or something equally accepted at main gates across the country is, if not very nearly zero, then very actually zero.

All it means is that uniformed staff will have the same fun that CI’s do. I know we asked for equality, but this isn’t what we meant…

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It’s way to early to ask those questions

Why is it too early? It’s as this point that the question is asked, not once they’ve decided. TBH to not do it as suggested by Cramar is stupid even for HQAC to allow and they’ve shown some rank stupidity in its decision and thought processes over the year.
But I suppose if you look at their project management and delivery success over the years you are numbed to not expect too much from them.

As it’s only just been announced today.

I’d take a punt at its being the same sort of thing as a contractor/dependent ID card.

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I will never go into uniform, Yes they get paid for certain cadet activities but then again they are often behind closed doors doing paper work etc. I would rather be out the office getting involved with cadets etc

[quote=“Plt_Off_Prune, post:15, topic:2696, full:true”]

[quote=“Farriersaxe, post:14, topic:2696”]
Why is it too early?
[/quote]As it’s only just been announced today.[/quote]

Exactly the point to start asking and get the idea in. Leave it too long and HQAC’s assembled will start to think independently, which hasn’t been a good thing in the last 15 or so years.

As long as MPGS or whoever’s on the gate at the time recognise it and the poor souls don’t look at you like you’ve got 2 heads and you spend ages explaining and phone calls, not a problem

If a CI is taking a full and active part in the squadron then I would expect them also to be behind closed doors deep in paperwork just as much as I would expect most of the staff (except perhaps OC, Trg Off or Adj) to be.

All staff need to make an effort to get involved at the cadet-face but prep and paperwork is a reality of that task.

Active CIs (specifically those going to camps or otherwise accessing military establishments) certainly should have an ID and ideally one allowing unescorted access - this may require a certain level of clearance though. I’m not sure all CIs should get an ID automatically though, just as all uniformed CFAVs need to actually apply for one.

Interestingly I got my WHQ to send a copy of my SC Clearance to our parent station, i’m now on their database with that so get an Unescorted Pass. I book in using my driving licence which now acts no different to a MOD 90, the days of just walking on seem to be long gone, all need a personal pass & Vehicle pass now.