How would I go about this...? This is long but I'm seeking advice

Cadets Ask the Staff
1

So let me start of with saying how much I love cadets, I am down almost every single night, before hand to open up, always the last to leave, always volunteering and planning nights. I joined cadets 3 years ago almost to the day, I have been a very good cadet and I am now well rounded because of the ATC and can’t thank them enough. It took me three years to be promoted although the squadron only had 3 nco’s for around 30 cadets.

But my squadron is a huge let down.I’m sad to say this but when I look at other sqns, I feel ashamed almost.

When I joined, there was less than 4 cadets on books, everyone else had left. Okay so now we have an astonishing 32 on books, which is a massive achievement for us (trust me).
But we don’t do anything. And i’m not just saying we don’t do anything just because winter is ending, but i mean through out the entire year.
We are hardly involved with competitions. We don’t have inter-flight comps any more, on a daily night we have two ci’s if we are lucky, and two uniformed staff. We have 5 uniformed staff on books, but three of them haven’t attended in well over 5 months I would say , although they did come down a few nights ago because the sqn ldr was there and non of the cadets seen them, nor know who they are.
We don’t do any practice walks for DofE, we are usually just left in the lurk. This usually leads people to become agitated and quit.
We have had so many people leave because its so boring, and un-organised. And the cadets get shouted at for not putting effort in - when they have no moral.
Our classifications are being handed out like candy. It was like all of a sudden, they decided that everyone was going to be a leading cadet. It took me three years to get leading cadet, when they are giving cadets who have been there less then 4 a leading classification, but what is worse is that they are telling them the answers in the exams, and when you ask them about a topic they have’t got clue.

Back in Octoer 2013 our c.o asked us what we wanted to see in our training program and to write one up in groups, and so we did, and he hasn’t done a training program that we’ve suggested or anything we put down.

Once non of our staff turned up, in the winter and we were left in the dark for about half an hour and it was cold and raining and no one turned up, so we had to walk home, and we received no apology from any of the staff.

They let a c.i back onto the squadron after a series of allegations from a cadets parents that he was sending messages to a cadet…but I think thats too inappropriate for this forum what happened…

The worst thing our squadron has ever done though was, we went on a annual greens camp, and before he camp we were told to get consent forms, so okay we asked for them (we dont have a website to download them from) and the c.o said he will get a c.i to give them up the night before we go, so we said okay. Th c.i didn’t brief us as instructed to,and didnt give us consent forms.

So we thought okay, right well we gave in our pre-consent forms saying that we wanted to go, so that must be it. We got to the camp and then we were told we had to go give in our consent forms. So we went to where we were meant to be to give them in and told them we didnt have them…they were fuming. They couldnt get a hold of any of our staff members at all. We were told that we might have to get the train back home, (150 miles). It was the most embarrassing experience of my life. But thankfully we were told we could stay.

But them something dangerous happened to me. I got appendicitis within the second day and had to be taken to hospital. They didnt have a consent form from me, but some bloody how they magically pulled one out with ALL my details (but not my mums signature) so I went a long with it… and then I was told I needed emergency surgery the next day (after spending the night). I had my appendix removed, where they found other problems, and now I require further surgery.

So I dont know what to think of that, It was our c.o’s fault that we weren’t prepared for that greens camp, and could of proved fatal had I not realized something was wrong with me because it was a bad infection.

I wanted to know weather I should put a overall complaint in about the c.o? Because everyone in cadets that i have asked has said that they think we need a new c.o, one who is committed and wants to take our cadets places, and have new experiences apart from doing lectures and sports every night!

Not to mention thre complains being made verbally to the c.o about a cadet with a video on youtube entitled get high and was smoking a splif, and was 15 at the time of these events and was only demoted,and not reported to wing but a complaint from the public was made because he was smoking an e-cig (a different time, probably a few weeks later) whilst poppy collecting,and was promoted a few weeks after again, and now is going on a cyprus trip, and has no disciplinary action taken, even through 3 complains have been made.

I know i’ve slagged and bitched about the problems of my sqn, but they are problems and I don’t want to leave cadets,Im not ready to, but Come on we are way beyond a joke. Our staff are laughing stocks at the moment.

If you think I should lodge a complaint, how do I do this and who do I contact? Also would I get into trouble if i did this? Im only 16 by the way.
Theres plenty of other stuff, but I will leave it at this.

Thanks for reading, I need serious advice only.

2

short answer: change squadrons. there are much better organised ones around and you, as a cadet, deserve much better than this.

3

If changing squadrons isn’t an option, ask your parents to write to the committee and or wing HQ regarding their concerns. Start their letter by stating they are not seeking betterment for you over others on the Sqn. (The usual rhetoric seen).

4

Shortstack has obviously gone to some length to write this topic, and it’s clearly something that is important to him/her. 293 views later and there’s only two replies, a grand total of two and a half lines, both of which are basically saying “move Squadron”. It seems either people aren’t interested in Shortstack’s situation/problem or they can’t be bothered to offer up any suggestions that may help improve the situation. In my opinion, changing Squadrons should be the last resort, not the first.

If you want a listening ear Shortstack, just pm me and we’ll see what we can dream up to help your situation!

5

We’ll done for not dragging up a topic from 12 months ago. I can see you read my reply, it was quite long and I can understand why you got what I said wrong. Perhaps the lack of replies indicated that between Vambo and myself we covered most practical and beneficial options?

6

The routes for this are :
leave ; move sqns ; parents get in touch with CWC and chairman to speak to CO. The latter is the best option, but it needs parents to do something.

The biggest problem is as with all of these sort of posts it’s from a cadet perspective. We haven’t got a scooby about the staff’s personal situations, qualifications etc etc that might be exacerbating the situation.

We also don’t know if the cadets are given opportunities with other sqns and aren’t taking them. We live in a Corps where doing things collectively is the norm as opposed to sqns doing it all themselves. Unless a sqn has members of staff qualified and or have the kit to hand, you can’t do things.
I have cadets say we don’t do anything, but they have seemed to miss the noticeboard covered with notices for activities, I’m sure as hell not going to chase them to do things, they’re told it’s happening briefed on the details and it’s then over to them. I and other staff go along to help run the things and when we organise things ourselves we invite our usual group along.

Given that the exams can be done “open book”, there isn’t even (in theory) really a need to instruct, so the classifications comment can be covered that way.

What happens in the e-world (you tube quote) unless it’s badged x sqn or directly linked to the ATC etc etc etc, there is little we can do and would be on shakey ground if we delivered sanctions at the sqn. We might say it’s inappropriate, but that’s where it stops. I know cadets who have been excluded from school, but I can’t realistically sanction them at the sqn as they haven’t been ‘naughty’ at the sqn.

7
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Don’t know what the 12 month comment is referring to. Yes Plt Off Prune, I did read your reply on the topic , change Sqn or write a letter was your advice. As for lack of replies, yes, perhaps you covered MOST practical options, then again maybe you didn’t.

I just felt the original post warranted a bit more of a response from this hub of wisdom, experience and knowledge. It is ironic that what I said has got a much greater response yet it’s Shortstack with the problem.

9

You’re not wrong in what you say SA, but realistically, a cadet can do little or nothing to change toxic leadership in a badly run squadron, particularly if that toxic management is unknown to higher echelon. (Or should I say ignored until it causes problems for the higher echelon?). Its hard enough for adult staff to turn around units unless they are in command positions and even they need support from outside and above to really do so. Its a process that can take years and many minor changes and machiavellian moves particularly if the toxic manager isn’t removed and replaced to begin with.

You know my history. I moved on and kept moving ultimately until I found a cadet force worth giving up my time for. Toxic management is everywhere and I’ve experienced it in the ACF too. But the difference was a willingness to do something about it that lasts and is effective. I am now a newly appointed DC of a detachment that has been badly run for the last 2 years by someone who is distracted and disinterested even if well-meaning. That has been recognised by the higher echelon and they are behind my changes and reform that I will bring to this unit.

Shortstack, you are 16 and you should be enjoying the ATC. You clearly have invested a lot and have been rewarded with promotion but you arent enjoying it anymore because of the lack of direction. You must do whatever you feel is right, but I don’t think things are going to change very quickly unless your lacklustre staff are all sacked tomorrow. If you do complain outside of the Sqn heirarchy you will likely be hounded out of the squadroon if not summarily dismissed. The stupendously lazy and utterly incompent in the cadet forces often have very precious egos and take great offence at any criticism directed at them by a cadet, or even if suspected instigated by one.

So yeah, move squadrons. The fight isn’t worth it and you are unlikely to change anything. It maybe that th biggest broadside you can fire at them. They might pause to reflect why one of their formerly keen and committed cadets is upping sticks and moving on.

10

I sincerely wish you all the best and even more sincerely hope that something doesn’t happen in your real life, that distracts you and if it does you are able to pass the baton without taking drastic action.
I’ve watched a few Sqn Cdrs go NEP just to force the issue, because they had real life problems that were affecting them and despite saying they wanted to step down. There are more who have carried on, as they know there isn’t the pool of FO or even PO to take over, which then just means a period of instability for the sqn, which would worse.
The last 7/8 years have been difficult times for many who have faced redundancy or multiple redundancy and the associated periods of unemployment, filled with job applications and pressure from the job centre which “distract” them from the ATC or ACF or SCC. Oh yes and then there are the things that affect us all. I’ve got staff who have been in this position and know people who had quite good jobs that they were made redundant from and who are now working harder for a lot less and some who are doing 2 jobs. But of course we can’t allow ourselves to be distracted or become disinterested, can we? Being in charge in our hobby requires, compassion, empathy and understanding, without these qualities you can’t function properly as a unit commander. Luckily I haven’t experienced any of the extremes some have and I hope if I did I would given a compassionate hearing.

Don’t be too quick to criticise people, as you may soon be experiencing the things that distracted them.

11

Don’t be too quick to criticise people, as you may soon be experiencing the things that distracted them.[/quote]

Why not? If something is worthy of valid criticism then why not voice it? Glass Half Empty 2, would you be saying the same thing if BOIS was heaping praise on people, is it ok to praise, but wrong to be critical? If you ask me, this highlights a problem within the ACO, it’s just not “good form” to voice problems/be critical at Sqn level. This is why so many problems seem to be immortal, because no-one is prepared to highlight the problem, as it’s much easier to just ignore it.

12

What you have to do is get to the root cause and understand the problems rather than being critical and then put in things in place to overcome these.

Getting to the root cause isn’t easy or done in 10 minutes, whereas coming down because you think you’ve seen a problem, then criticising, pointing fingers and getting all snotty, is.

I know I have staff who should be doing more, but unless I was able to employ them, so they can have the time off to do even basic things, it ain’t gonna 'appen. I could have the is this the right thing for you conversation, but I have a life outside the ATC.

I think the upshot is that in terms of the OP, cadets see a very two dimensional picture of the ATC and will never fully understand even if they were told. I was like that as a cadet and it was only once I became staff, did I appreciate things and then later when I was married and had children did I gain another level of appreciation.

13

I never meant to imply any of this, not at all. I meant looking at problems with a critical eye, to enable you to identify root cause in order to solve said problem. Many times the root cause is a person, and to pretend otherwise is avoiding the issue. No matter what the case, there is no need for any sort of finger pointing or getting snotty, that simply comes down to how you express yourself.

14

I sincerely wish you all the best and even more sincerely hope that something doesn’t happen in your real life, that distracts you and if it does you are able to pass the baton without taking drastic action.
I’ve watched a few Sqn Cdrs go NEP just to force the issue, because they had real life problems that were affecting them and despite saying they wanted to step down. There are more who have carried on, as they know there isn’t the pool of FO or even PO to take over, which then just means a period of instability for the sqn, which would worse.
The last 7/8 years have been difficult times for many who have faced redundancy or multiple redundancy and the associated periods of unemployment, filled with job applications and pressure from the job centre which “distract” them from the ATC or ACF or SCC. Oh yes and then there are the things that affect us all. I’ve got staff who have been in this position and know people who had quite good jobs that they were made redundant from and who are now working harder for a lot less and some who are doing 2 jobs. But of course we can’t allow ourselves to be distracted or become disinterested, can we? Being in charge in our hobby requires, compassion, empathy and understanding, without these qualities you can’t function properly as a unit commander. Luckily I haven’t experienced any of the extremes some have and I hope if I did I would given a compassionate hearing.

Don’t be too quick to criticise people, as you may soon be experiencing the things that distracted them.[/quote]Okay I’ll bite. This is not distracted, this is wilful negligence and a bad attitude towards the det he commands and the wider ACF. Sadly this is only in the last 2 years. 10 years prior to that, this person was one of the Coys best DCs and instructors, but something has gone wrong, but this person isn’t asking for help or has had any traumatic changes in their life for the worst. He just seems to have grown bitter and selfish.

I was hoping as his no2 that it was a temporary problem. But 18 months on and it’s getting worse. He has moved away from the area and doesn’t want to drive an hour each way to the detachment, but it was his choice to move. He has changed to a job where if not actually at work during shift times, wouldn’t have time to get here before 2030 after knocking off on other shifts. Again his choice. He also has a tendency to have ‘dramas’ which look very much like any excuse not to bother with the parade that night, and always at short notice. Previously we have had fallen trees, snow flurries, flat tyres, stiff neck, Last week it was ‘flooding’ The week before his cat died. The week before that had to wait in for a delivery. Now off for six weeks after breaking a toe. An injury so minor at the time he was only going to see his GP about it, but by the following day it had become broken in 2 placed and now in plaster. The Coy Commander has been at my det more often than he has this year. He has failed to turn up to appointments with Coy Offrs at the det. Has informed me by text that he is going to cancel the parade at 4pm the same day. I told him don’t do that because it’s too late to cancel and some won’t get the message (did a lot of that last year when I was at work too.) I have had to get out of bed on my night shift sleep period during the day/early evening to go to the det and open up, then go on to work a night shift on 3 occasions.

He fails to do the rather minimal paperwork/Westminster uploads required for cadets courses and camps and tells the disappointed cadet 'County’s f***d up again’ Pays short shrift to County’s requests or instructions on simple matters, many of which are simply instruction from Brigade/LAND/SERFCA. Ignores various instructions from RSMI, Cty etc; Last 3 years does nothing but AT on camp, badly, never in uniform, never does a guard or duty, always making excuses etc; Last year had to be ordered to OC a 1 cadre in week 2 due to staff sickness and bitched and moaned incessantly about it that everybody complained about him and how irritating he was. He wont admit he isn’t fulfilling the DC role at the coalface and seems to think it can be done remotely and by delegation and only when it suits him, which is almost never these days. But nothing is done remotely by him, but up close and personal by me and I’m doing it because it needs to be done, not because he tells me to. And to cap it all this person has a massive chip on his shoulder for being passed over for promotion two years running. Expects promotion and a cushy Coy lvl job as AT Officer and no det duties.

I asked him if I had his record of attendance, attitude or if a cadet had, would you recommend me or them for promotion? He seems to think he is owed, and now uses that as an excuse to let others down. The Cadets and I are sick of being let down by this person.

The ACF have a booklet called Customs of the Service. In it it says one the most important things you can do for your detachment is turn up regularly. He has continually failed even that basic requirement.

15

Unless you find out from the person what is going on in their lives, especially if there is a noticeable change in them you’ll understand nothing. Because it’s not the person it’s what’s going on in their lives that creates the problems. My WSOs are fully aware of my concerns about the Corps and what goes on in my own life. And unless they are holding back my staff tell me and they pick up on the cadets. We can’t do much about things, but having a knowledge allows for understanding and work arounds.
I do think that in BOIS’ example there has been a massive fail by the senior Coy staff, to allow that situation to happen.

16

GHE2, we are not social workers, it’s just not our place to act as such. Of course take an interest in anyone that seems to be having problems, but only up to a point. Your comment above, the “it’s not the person” bit, you are wrong here. If someone carries the burden of command/rank, then that carries responsibilities and expectations and as such “it is the person”. It is of no significance whether there are problems in that persons life because the responsibility remains constant. If it was the workplace instead of the ACO, how long would you expect to hold down a job if you just weren’t delivering the goods? All CO’s/members of staff have the option of resigning, NEP, delegating responsibility or asking for help. The wise ones do at least one of these if they are having problems, the stupid ones blunder on regardless. Bottom line is if you’re not doing the job then either “buck up”, or move over. I don’t mean to sound uncaring here, but that’s life!

BOIS, your last post echoes closely here, as I have experienced similar problems in the past with numerous C/O’s over the years. I once had a C/O that used to attend maybe 1 parade night in 4,(over a three year period). Another that would often cancel parade nights two hours beforehand, and that was before we had mobile phones and e-mails! Another C/O that was notorious with anything where money was involved, and a couple that were just utterly useless in every way possible. Often the incompetent are promoted up the ladder, to reduce their impact at Sqn/cadet level, other times the unworthy are given command. We have a rank structure, and are meant to operate accordingly but the very bedrock of the rank structure is not being observed, ie, promotion based on experience/merit/ability (bar Plt/Off to Flg Off promotion which is generally time based). From what I’ve seen over the last 10 to 15 years, well over half the C/O positions are given to “whoever’s willing”, it’s little wonder some places are falling to pieces.

There are some truly wonderful staff within the ACO, I have met many along the way and it’s a privilege and an honour to have worked with them. On the other hand, there are some really awful staff, and in my opinion they should be dealt with effectively. Whether that means improving them or sacking them I really don’t mind, but to allow the problem to continue unchecked is just counter productive and goes against everything the ACO claims to stand for.

I shall now sit back and await the barrage of flak flying my way!

17

[quote=“Sikhing_Answers” post=16580]Often the incompetent are promoted up the ladder, to reduce their impact at Sqn/cadet level, other times the unworthy are given command. We have a rank structure, and are meant to operate accordingly but the very bedrock of the rank structure is not being observed, ie, promotion based on experience/merit/ability (bar Plt/Off to Flg Off promotion which is generally time based). From what I’ve seen over the last 10 to 15 years, well over half the C/O positions are given to “whoever’s willing”, it’s little wonder some places are falling to pieces.

There are some truly wonderful staff within the ACO, I have met many along the way and it’s a privilege and an honour to have worked with them. On the other hand, there are some really awful staff, and in my opinion they should be dealt with effectively. Whether that means improving them or sacking them I really don’t mind, but to allow the problem to continue unchecked is just counter productive and goes against everything the ACO claims to stand for.[/quote]SA, the ACF and ATC are really cut from more or less the same cloth and have probably 99% the same cultural DNA. But it’s the 1% difference that makes the difference. The ACF deals with the problems and if necessary will remedial train or even sack staff, and certainly won’t promote them away from the coalface because it is the easier option. In fact, come to think of it, it’s quite brutal and I have seen rather more sackings in my 7 years in the ACF than 28 years of working life. This probably explains why discipline is tighter in the ACF. Slack off or balls it up, expect to be moved over. If you can’t commit, say so, and do something about it before letting others down. If you make a mistake, own up to it, and it can usually be rectified. I think staff are well treated and appreciated in the ACF, but they must never forget that they don’t own the ACF, and it is bigger than them and their egos.

Now, to drag this back on topic, what should the cadet in question, the OP do?

I think the only viable solution is seek an alternative Sqn. Nothing else is likely to benefit this keen cadet Cpl.

18

Thank you everyone for your replies.
They have left me deep in thought. I have recently undergone more surgery so I have been unable to attend cadets. But this time away from cadets has given me time to reflect on my time as a cadet of the atc.
I can honestly say I do enjoy it especially the little things that we get to take part in that other, more organised squadrons might take for granted.
I do recognise that obviously staff have jobs, very important jobs as they have more responsibilities lile paying for bills, mortgages etc, and respect that way beyond belief.
What im trying to get at is, would it be worth going to a higher power to sort this out or would it be better to bring it down to a more personal squadron level? Because of my time away I want to organise a meeting for staff and n.c.o’s to get all of the problems into the open without being bollacked basically like has been done in the past.

We get told regularly by an officer that if we haven’t got the commitment then we need to leave, but that in my eyes is very hypocritical since this is an officer who doesn’t take much interest in us as a squadron, and regularly smokes in front of the building and breaks a lot of regulations.
So yes I am in a dilemma.
Do I leave or not. I feel as if I have put up with so much ■■■■ (excuse my French) that i cant leave if that makes any sense at all.

Another thing, can a officer (not top sure on her rank) who is not commanding officer, give a CPL a set of SGT stripes on the sly, so that he can wea them for a camp to cyprus? Especially if he has been cpl less then two months?

19

[quote=“Shortstack” post=16591]

Another thing, can a officer (not top sure on her rank) who is not commanding officer, give a CPL a set of SGT stripes on the sly, so that he can wea them for a camp to cyprus? Especially if he has been cpl less then two months?[/quote]Has the promotion been entered onto the cadets 3822? 2 months a Cpl is still ‘probationary’ in my view. (or do you have Junior Cpls, ie; Lance Cpls yet? Did that ever happen?)

The answer you don’t want to hear is that rules are rules unless a person in a position of authority decides otherwise. Cadets can’t point out the hypocrisy of adults without being at best ignored, and at worst vilified and marginalized for it. The only answer is for the cadet forces to ensure it does not employ hypocrites. Easier said than done. The only advice I can give is to forgive. As you get older you will meet many hypocrites. They are not uncommon at all.

The very fact that this has gone on suggests there is a bit of a problem in your Squadron and even, dare I say it the ACO. Whilst I have quite brazenly incentivised one of my Cpls by telling her that as soon as she gets 3*, she gets her third stripe, as per the rules, I can’t subvert the process, however much I want to as her 3* classification is out of my hands. If she were to rock up on a camp or course with Sgt slides and a 2* badge on her admin panel, I’d get a phone call!

Shortstack, don’t quit yet. Look at moving to another squadron. Do you have a wing padre/skypilot/rabbi/imam you could talk to? He might be able to make some enquiries about a transfer on the QT without ruffling too many feathers.

The ACO is still a great organisation (not as great as when I was a cadet during a cold war :angry: ) but it has many flaws. You have invested a lot and are probably due some return. A flying Scholarship, an IACE tour? Get those things before quitting.

20

Get one of your parents to speak to the Chairman to raise the concerns with the CO first and do the other one if required.

Inline with the modern way we don’t do many things on our own and I wonder if you are expecting too much as per the “more organised squadron” remark. I have cadets who say we don’t do anything, despite a full noticeboard.