Why do we need to have FMT600 when invariably the vehicle we wish to drive is already on our licence? Is just some MOD thing or is there an actual need? I’ve hired minbuses and driven up to 7½ tonners and only need to produce my licence and cough the dosh, so why isn’t this enough for the MOD?
Take minibuses as a topical for instance, we get calls from various sqns through the year asking for people with FMT600 to drive minibuses on camps. Yet due to the fall in the number of camps we go to where there are MT sections willing/able (primarily IMO as they are civvie contract) the number of people with 600s has dropped. Now it seems if you want a 600 you need to take a day off, yet the chance you will actually use it before it needs renewing are slim.
I’ve been on camps where they’ve issued temporary 600s on the basis of your ordinary licence and reading MTOs and that’s it.
Simply because the law states amoloyees or similar must make satisfactory checks on entitlement before supplying a vehicle. This, for the time being, is the only practical way of doing that with such a transitory workforce (regs inc). It’s not great. I once saw a suggestion that the matrix test and MT orders refreshers be put online for ease of the ACO. Would save a fortune after a 4 year cost return. The MoD declined the suggestion and because we dance to their tune we have to trundle behind.
I wouldn’t lend my car to someone purely on the basis of their having passed the driving test!
Nothing wrong with a check ride, although I have to say that the reading of orders, etc is a real PITA that we could do without - or at least make it work electronically. There’s a thought - upload all of the MT orders for any station to BADER then we can electronically sign them.
The only check needs to be driving licence. If you haven’t got it on your licence then you can’t have/drive it. We have hire vehicles at work for infrequent business use and in all the time I’ve had these I’ve never had to check drive or anything.
As for lending some random individual your car, this is nothing like it. I don’t think any private individual would do that.
I think this used to be the system, and too many drivers were stacking their vehciles into various stationary hard objects. Then using the MoD. Risk mitigation they call it. Bum cover you and I probably call it.
I think part of the problem is that pre 1997 everyone had everything on their licence, regardless of their capability to drive it, hence a check drive to prove you aren’t a complete idiot.
Nowadays the problem should have fixed itself with newer recruits only driving cars until they do a separate course at Leconfield.
You haven’t even mentioned the other problem with FMT600s. MT Sections up and down the country don’t recognise eachother’s FMTs. I went to Cranwell with a perfectly legitimate FMT 600 from Brize and was told it wasn’t valid there, I needed a new one from them. with exactly the same details as my brize one. Then at Honington they won’t issue you a vehicle without seeing your original record of driver training, the FMT 600 not being a good enough record.
I like Brize. I took them my original but out of date St Mawgan FMT, they just issued me a new one without any faff at all.
^^^slightly off topic but this annoyed me about visiting RAF Stations…although holding a valid MOD90 they insisted on having a photo on file, so stand for the mug shot.
fortunately with the new system the mug shot at one Station can be viewed by all.
why this system isn’t used for MT I don’t know but I understand (I don’t have a FMT600) is a common issue. what is valid in one place is not elsewhere or is but only for car and will not recognise Minibus or Landrover!
[quote=“Baldrick” post=14862]You haven’t even mentioned the other problem with FMT600s. MT Sections up and down the country don’t recognise eachother’s FMTs. I went to Cranwell with a perfectly legitimate FMT 600 from Brize and was told it wasn’t valid there, I needed a new one from them. with exactly the same details as my brize one. Then at Honington they won’t issue you a vehicle without seeing your original record of driver training, the FMT 600 not being a good enough record.
I like Brize. I took them my original but out of date St Mawgan FMT, they just issued me a new one without any faff at all.[/quote]
I wonder if there is someone who can explain this and make it seem rational.
The other thing is 600s seem to need an annual renewal, again really needs someone to explain the rationale.
Do the individual forces recognise each others? I doubt it.
I think it depends where your Parenting Stn is. Most of the ones that I have come across only require an annual signing of MT Orders to make sure (as far as possible) that you remain aware of local requirements, and at the same time they check that you still have a civvy licence for the groups on your 600. I guess in the past there have been individuals who have been banned but who didn’t tell their local MT section.
There are without doubt some MT Sections that are a real PITA. I spent nearly half an hour at Valley several years ago being lectured to about driving minibuses and being told that only Advanced Drivers should be allowed to have D licences!
They should do. All of the MT sections (Army and RAF) I have ever used recognise each others 600s, again, all they need is a local orders signature. What is daft is the requirement to do the UK Matrix Test for driving in Cyprus - I’ve even had to do the Germany Matrix Test for Cyprus too; barking!!
I think having a check ride is a very important phase in the checking. Just because you hold a licence doesn’t mean you drive a vehicle. Would you be happy signing off a member of staff to drive even a car full of cadets if the last time they were behind a wheel was 2 years ago? I wouldn’t! It’s the same with the minibus. My mum has a D1, has held a driving licence for over 40 years and has NEVER driven anything bigger than a car. would I be happy putting 17 cadets in the back? No way! I however have no D1, but used to drive the minibus with a permit 19 and have lots of recent experience driving bigger vehicles.
I think driving skills fade after 2 years is negligible and the acclimatisation to a different vehicle will be as big an obstacle, even if you drive to MT in your car to pick it up. If they hadn’t driven for, say, 10 years I’d be more concerned.
Driving a modern minibus is not particularly challenging and so long as you have done it before I don’t think it really matters too much if you’ve not driven one for a while so long as your overall driving and road skills are reasonably current. ie, your mum may need a quick check-ride but somebody who actually has experience driving the vehicle type should not.
Remember, a lot of the processes involved with MT are there purely to keep the MT people occupied and employed. They may be sold as risk mitigation but the level of risk some of them are dealing with is incredibly small and often an over-reaction.
Certainly, the MT600 needs to be universal and slaved to the national driving licence. It is essentially an MoD insurance document and should be as simple as that: have a page for vehicle types and dates of check-rides where required, then a couple of pages for signed-off readings of station MT orders. Keep all of that data on a linked system and Bob’s your uncle.
[quote=“incubus” post=14901]a lot of the processes involved with MT are there purely to keep the MT people occupied and employed.
Certainly, the MT600 needs to be universal and slaved to the national driving licence.[/quote]
I think you’re right on the job front and any Tom, Dick and Harry can have access to DVLA records, especially those involved in private car parking, letting the MoD have access shouldn’t be too much of a problem. We turn up say we want they check against the DVLA, we sign something and off we trot.
Most MT vehicles that we would most commonly use are hired via contract. We’ve had to swap minibuses mid-week on camps, where the old one is going for a service.
Access to DVLA records isn’t that simple. Your local parking scam office are not allowed to obtain the RK details. Not the details of the owner, nor the date of aquasition, nor anyone’s driving license categories, nor pending endorsements, bans or points accumulated.
Strange really since they can find out where I live.
Only the police get to see that large list.
Actually POP, thats not quite right (in so far as DVLA records).
Pretty much anyone can request RK details (for a given vehicle on a specific date) but there must be a reasonable cause for the request.
https://www.gov.uk/request-information-from-dvla
However you are quite correct that driving license details, endorsements etc cant be obtained by any Tom, Dick or Harry without your authority/consent (this includes insurers, hire companies and employers).
[quote=“Perry Mason” post=14906]Actually POP, thats not quite right (in so far as DVLA records).
Pretty much anyone can request RK details (for a given vehicle on a specific date) but there must be a reasonable cause for the request.
https://www.gov.uk/request-information-from-dvla
However you are quite correct that driving license details, endorsements etc cant be obtained by any Tom, Dick or Harry without your authority/consent (this includes insurers, hire companies and employers).[/quote]
I stand corrected by my learned colleague. Thanks for setting that straight, I must be thinking of something else…
Just like almost everything else in the military…
As for the renewal, a) it checks people actually have it (it hasn’t been in the washing machine), and if not, a replacement can be issued (as of course anyone driving a “service” vehicle on duty has to carry their '600), b) ensures the holder has to been seen to refamiliarise themselves with MT orders (which can change), and c) allows a check of the persons driving licence to see if any endorsements have been “achieved” in the past 12 months! And it keeps some contractors in a job!
Sadly though the days of turning up with your licence (both parts) for initial issue should be long gone. If you don’t have to spend the best part of a day getting your first '600 then someone’s cutting corners. :unsure: Re-issues should be simple, even at another station.
Let us not forget that in some situations, a fellow can drive a vehicle without the requisite annotation on their civi DL, or be exempt from the age requirements for certain categories and would therefore need recognisance of that in some form…
i always thought they had the category on their Civi licence, it was as a military driver they had the dispensation to do so underage…i presume if this is not the case once they have qulified by age then it is included on their licence?
Was this not normally for Group C vehicles - DVLA won’t grant it until age 21 but MT600 acted as dispensation in its own right.