Aren’t HQAC making all stand down periods dependent upon units hitting their KPIs?
(It’s sarcasm, don’t shoot me!)
I’ve told you the information and numbers on how long a sustained delivery of GIF takes and you’ve chosen to completely deny that it is possible a reality for that to be true because you’ve taken 4 cadets gliding on a couple of occasions and they’ve managed to get long trips.
Good for them that’s great however it is not probable to expect every cadet to get 1 launch 15mins plus. If there are no thermals, you’re coming down. Take a fairly generous launch height of 1460’ (especially for Kenleys short 2500’ runaway) get the Viking all the way back to its minimum sink rate of 146’/min and you’ll get your 10 minute flight. Taking a random selection of five gliders in the fleet over their 40 year life span they are at 7.3, 7.4, 6.6, 6.4 and 7.7 minutes per launch on average so 10 minutes is not really pessimistic as a planning assumption really
Is a 15min + flight possible – Yes, is it consistently sustainable – No
Moving on to cycling cadets through the GIF, there is a range there 35 to 50 minutes picking a number below that range does not make it probable. The numbers given above for rotating through GIF with 10 min start, 10 min flight, 10 min reset, 10 min flight and 5 min finish is entirely plausible as the midpoint of that range is 42.5 minutes.
A flying window of 5 hours is indeed possible 7.5 hours is possible can’t extend it further though the set up and tear down isn’t writing RAs, Admin instructions JI’s and nominal roles like an SMS event and they can just be repeated its safety inspections of aircraft, equipment and plant that have to be done every day. In that 7.5 hours you’re still only getting through 10 cadets on that aircraft IF its operating with 3 or 4 others.
You’ve noted about the GIF operation you’ve seen being the operation of one aircraft. Operating five aircraft does not give five times the capacity of one they tend to start affecting one another. You can’t land at the launch point (the point to receive another cable) if that is occupied by another aircraft, you can land on the airfield but will require a tow or push back into the launch line taking about 10 mins. 10 min brief CFS like to call it a 5-point brief but yep it indeed does follow pretty much the SMEAC route and should be covering Aim of the flight – Airmanship hand over/take over lookout etc – Exercise Brief normally instruments and what they’re seeing at this point – Flight Brief who’s doing what - Check of Understanding including and entire run through of the abandonment procedure. You may well be changing the weight configuration of the aircraft that takes time to action.
Is a quick turn around possible – Yes (with single glider ops + qualified support staff) is it possible with 5 aircraft – No
Circa 10,000 flying in gliders is not too far from the mark though not necessarily how you’ve done the calculation. A 5 as VGS should be outputting about 1000 GIF a year 32 GS and a handful of AGT. As I said before GIF primarily will require 2 launches so that’s 1800-2000 launches, or up to half out of the finite resource that is the number of launches available per year. There is the engineers designated flying rate to ensure the aircraft burn rate is kept steady to maintain separation from them all needed a major at the same time. 1000 cadets divided by the number of flyable days I reckon I’ll get (87) that about 11.5 apparently we’re not allowed to cut cadets in half so task at 12.
Is the VGS world too small to fly half of 40,000 cadets – Yes – it’s tiny, three of the VGS aren’t fully operational. There are only about 100 instructors there used to be 300 to 400. it should be about 17 Squadrons stronger with 100 extra aircraft distributed around the country maybe a couple in Wales few more in Scotland and one over the water
And that is numberwang!!!
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It all depends on your location too to your parent station. Although our Wing Aviation Officer is very good in how he handles requests and does a fantastic job of juggling sometimes with staff availability as usually for us its Flying Weekdays and gliding Weekends we might only get 3 slots in a month. However this month we have had 4 gliding and 3 flying slots. I will also encourage cadets to bid for as many Easter and summer camps as possible as sometimes the opportunity for flying there too.
Wait wait… you’ve not been flying?
Now I feel really out of the loop, but is that just a 7AEF thing or…?
Keep pushing
@Cab - this really needs to be a priority. Still waiting please on any take up for a visit - although I understand that events in the ME are probably leading all agendas at the moment. 
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That’s the unforgivable bit.
If the RAFAC clings to “no flying but RAF flying” and the result is that far fewer cadets get airborne for YEARS, they have failed and hammered a few bonus nails into the proverbial coffin.
The bullish clinging to RAF flying when it’s painfully obvious even to an outsider like me that a significant increase would still be poor…
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I’m going to say it as I see it.
The RAF is incapable of providing flying for a key component of itself; the cadets.
Whilst @Cab continues to claim that we can’t use civilian clubs for safety, many of us believe the real reason is that he’s wet his pants over the idea of the RAF being made to look bad by publicly admitting that they’re incapable of providing a key cadet activity. Imagine, of course, if it became public knowledge of just how incapable our Armed Forces are.
There is zero tangible evidence to the contrary of the above belief.
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That’s not very nice, is it?
I am doing my duty in following the direction in JSP814 and I do not currently have the capacity to assure civilian methods of delivering flying activity. Still, ACPS is awesome, I have directed more Qualified Service Pilots to join AEFs and Cmdt 6 FTS is reviewing weekend AEF activity. We are very much providing a key Air Cadet activity safely, in accordance with regulations, innovatively and in balance with the myriad commitments placed upon the Group and RAF as a whole.
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I’d be interested to see the comparative accident/fatality rates for civilian gliding clubs and the VGS’s…
In fact I’d be interested to see a comparison between the daily accident/fatality rate from before we got all excitable about going camping, and going for a Sqn walk on a Sunday morning, and afterwards…
I have seen some appalling incompetence and recklessness in the ATC, events in in which only the intervention of a particularly benevolent God could have saved lives or prevented serious injury, so I’m by no means advocating a ‘just crack on’ environment - I’m just not convinced that the road we’ve gone down, one filled with paper, has had more impact than one filled with training and experience…
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Ok, I’ll ask - you don’t have the resources to go around every gliding club to check stuff - that’s fine, we understand that.
But what other mechanisms have you (22Gp) thought about to try and open up other opportunities?
If you’ve looked at other ideas, other work arounds, other mechanisms, and it didn’t work out, then fine - that happens in every other walk of life - but the real problem is that no one ever communicates that. No one says ‘we tried this, but it didn’t work for X, Y, and Z reasons’ - all we get is ‘no’.
If the rules are the problem, has anyone thought about changing the rules? Are they perfect?
You’ll remember the ‘computer says no’ thing - well that’s how we feel. Not great for morale…
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That’s a disingenuous answer at best and you know it. Very few cadets get airborne anymore, to the extent that saying you “very much” provide a key Air Cadet activity makes Comical Ali sound honest when he declared there were no tanks in Baghdad.
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I don’t imagine there would be that much bad publicity. It’s no secret that the RAF is a shadow of its former self, and that stations have closed.
The majority don’t know what they’re looking at anyway, so likely wouldn’t be able to tell or care if the picture of cadet Bloggs is at a VGS or at a BGA club.
You’d keep the AEF stuff going to churn out more scholarships and lovely but maybe more exclusive AEF/aerobatic experience - so the “RAF Experience” is still the “gold standard”.
I just don’t think anyone else from an optics perspective cares enough who is flying the cadets.
So I don’t think it is that. I think it is more just an ingrained attitude that only the RAF are safe operators of aircraft - despite their regular, howling, lash ups evidencing otherwise.
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Surely 2FTS has spare capacity to look at due diligence now that ACPS is at AEFs? No civilian organisation(s) to assess / monitor?
What is needed to provide such capacity?
Look at the Air League - they award flying scholarships using outside providers - copy their due diligence protocols / augment as required?
It may well be but only a very few (100 per yr??) out of thousands of cadets will be awarded this. The majority will only see (at best) a smattering of AEF / VGS sorties.
Hallelujah!!
Props falling off, wrong engine power settings (oil consumption) & other significant grounding events?
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Well, with respect then, is anything being done to perhaps change that? Would there, for the time being, be much we can do other than sit tight?
Clearly Air Cadets and Staff are unhappy with the arrangement, and I would imagine that the various AEFs probably don’t find being stretched thin to be a very enjoyable experience, with a lack of instructors (I note, that this has been a longstanding problem and continues to be one for the wider Flying Training system) - While I wouldn’t like to guess, I imagine you probably aren’t happy with the current state of affairs, as it leads to you being on the receiving end of some substantial flak!
It might not be, but that is the perception that is being held. None of us want that idea to be spread. It does not reflect well on any of us. But as much as it’s not nice, that is the idea that people hold, and will continue to hold.
Much like how in some quarters we are viewed as “unreliable” thanks to the issue of Car Parking. Fundamentally we are not winning hearts and minds in the public eye. That wouldn’t matter if it weren’t for the fact there sometimes seems to be no rhyme or reason for it, which gives people within the organisation that idea, right or wrong.
(I will eat my humble pie on my previous comments regarding ACPS!)
Unfortunately, ACPS isn’t a fix to our present problem.
As Mike pointed out, it is out of reach of the ordinary cadet. Relatively few Cadets will likely (as much as we wish otherwise) experience ACPS and all the benefits it offers, and clearly there is a serious lack of supply regarding flying time.
Cue 1AEF suffering the ignominy of being grounded to the tune of “The Hangar Doors fell off”
(Disclaimer on the above: I’ve no idea how true this is, only they had to cease flying when other AEFs did not, and something about a safety inspection. How true this is, I don’t know, but there was certainly a time where 1AEF ceased flying temporarily where other units didn’t.)
And this is one of the problems - everyone getting their turn in a plane relies on everything running on rails. In other words, the Planes need to work, the Weather needs to be good, the Pilots need to be there in good shape, the Airfield needs to be usable, and so on and so forth.
No, but for whatever reason you do only seem to appear on here and answer questions when you’re insulted, whilst leaving other pertinent questions unanswered or giving a politician’s answer at the very best.
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I would remind people of our AUP and not to post solely with the intention of abusing other users.
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