3.5 hours I’m affraid is a very long time and sounds very single VGS specific for some reason, its more than possible to get 5 on the line to launch in an hour and half two max.
It will be the same for most VGSs.
Typically flying wont start prior to 11 hence the 3.5 hours from when staff start to arrive.
Not in my experience of the 4 VGS ive visited and 1 i was a FSC at…pretty prompt starts in the morning if everyone pulls their weight
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Definitely not at all Squadrons, there’s less than 20 pre flying tasks you’ve listed there some of which take only a few minutes.
Like many places in RAFAC there is a tendency to add in local common practice on top of the actual regulation, the number of BFs that people drag out to check way beyond the manual.
Looks like its ripe to bring in some qaic cadets or send some staff to central to expand their skill set.
It’s over 9 years since the gliding pause was invoked….
I don’t think anybody envisaged we’d be where we are (or aren’t) now with an FTS that has expanded and a VGS structure that has shrunk to about a third of its pre-pause size?
Don’t forget that the RAF and RAFAC will not want to farm out any gliding as per ACTO 35 whilst the VGS structure is still being rebuilt. That smacks of failure.
Whilst the VGS continue to fly a military aircraft then it will come under MAA scrutiny and the emphasis will be on safety post Haddon Cave whether cadets fly in VGS gliders or BGA gliders…
That’s like a construction company refusing to hire contractors despite having houses to build.
Doesn’t happen. You do what you have to to get the job done - temporarily at the very least and then review once capacity is restored.
Another way to look at that would be the hiring of temps during active recruitment. You’ve still got work that needs doing.
Part of HQAC’s job is to get cadets in the air. They should have swallowed their pride years ago knowing that internal output was going to fall woefully short and the organisation needed to find another way to meet its USP. They claim the assurance effort was too great (a backtrack on an existing and active ACTO 35), but that’s a pretty selfish outlook that resulted in a generation of cadets getting nothing, and a second with negligible opportunities. I don’t have much hope for the third.
Instead, we’ve seen a period where at times it appeared the SCC and Scouts flew more than we did.
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If farming out smacks of failure, then air cadets not flying due to (perceived?) lack of capacity absolutely reaks of it.
The whole “pause” was a failure - VGS staff should have been seconded to their local BGA site to maintain currency handling skills.
Whilst the Vigilantes have gone to a good cause, there clearly was funding available in another pot to facilitate refurbishment.
Trying to take fibreglass aircraft “back to birth” with respect to paperwork / inspections was going to be impossible. So, when it was clear that specialist inspections were going to be needed, awarding a contract to Southern Sailplanes when they hadn’t even got planning permission for the extra 3 hangars (previous planning refused in 2015?) was, to me, the height of idiocy.
EIDT - I think it took some 22 months to even sort out a contract!
They went down the utmost importance route!
This has become of utmost importance as a large contract has been awarded by the MOD to Southern Sailplanes (in conjunction with Babcock Aerospace)for the return to service of approx 73 gliders.
Such a contract is of utmost importance to national security and the training of RAF pilot recruits to defend this nation needs to be given priority over relatively minor AONB concerns
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Ha.
They would have discovered flying for pleasure and never returned.
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Well, BGA have been given divulged authority for issuing licences.
Shame that they can’t be trusted by RAFAC…
By RAFAC or MOD? I thought this issue sat a lot higher than HQAC?
Yeah, you know what I mean - the self-protectionist, wrap everything in cotton wool brigade! 
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Which brings me back to the 4.5 hour flying window.
Start at 1100, flying finishes at 1530 - yet we all know it doesn’t, certainly during BST* so accepting its 3.5hours to get going regardless a 4.5 hour- 5hour flying window should be achievable still?
Or have i missed some other factor that the CFAV is not aware of?
*note my 50% deduction of available flyin capacity
To get to your 20,000 cadets flown you’ve assumed all aircraft are flying GIF and halved the number of flying days to account for weather and other factors thats not how aircraft are tasked and 4.5 hours for 9 cadets is optimistic the likelihood is that it will be two circuits rather than a 20min soaring flight. Quickest turn around for that is around 45mins, that assumes there is another qualified pilot to help fit parachute and assist with pre flight brief.
So 1 aircraft can do around about 10 cadets max (more realisticly 8) in 7.5 hours plus 1.5 hours briefing weighing etc thats 9 hours + shut down + travel and your at the 12 hour crew duty time.
In a 5 aircraft squadron you can assume.
1ac is broken - in major or minor servicing, tyre valve has blown or cadet has randomly pulled the canopy jettison so is unavailable.
1 ac is doing mandatory sct with nearly all its launches - spare capacity is developing new staff pilots.
1.5 aircraft are doing GS training to get to around 30 GS a year. Without GS the VGS system falls over.
Leaves 1.5 aircraft for GIF flying which gives about 12 +/- GIF slots per day.
Does assume all the volunteers required to fly all five are available dont jave some new mandatory training to do and the RAF are able to provide medicals. Not all VGS have 5 aircraft so for the smaller ones adjust each element as necessary.
Yes thats exactly how how I’ve calculated it.
I’ve removed 20,000 GIF flights from the capacity to allow for:
Can you plesse show your workings for:
Also is the following not part of the 3.5 hours you calculated at the beginning of the day?
Are you not counting this twice?
Perhaps its easier to break the whole day down for us?
In my most recent experience at VGS it was one pilot all day who except for a loo break and lunch flew back to back* 20 minute GIFs…so my ignorance needs filling in please
*and by this i mean land, Cadet out, next in. Turn around within minutes easily 30 minutes between flights not the 45 minutes you suggest
They were very lucky to be able to fly multiple soaring trips back to back on every flight. I’ve yet to see every single GIF flight in a day result in soaring even on the most booming days.
The timing of 45mins comes from
10min preflight - donning parachute, entry, cockpit brief, flight brief, emergency brief.
10min flight - includes preflight checks and cable hook up also holds for landing aircraft.
10min reset - with multiple aircraft operating likelihood of landing at the lanch point reduced, exit tow back and entry again. May also include a cable tow out run. If only 1 or 2 aircraft are operating then this may reduce, however the other required tasks arent happening as detailed above for the 4 available aircraft.
10min flight - includes preflight checks and cable hook up also holds for landing aircraft.
5 min exit - safely get the cadet out without jettisoning the canopy or smashing the flarm.
Nope the 1.5 was instead of the 3.5 hours
0730 - depart home location (very few VGS have overnight accommodation on site) from departure the crew duty clock starts ticking.
0730-0830 - travel (an average)
0830-1000 - set up minimum briefing, weighing, safety video, aircraft DI, vehicles positioning etc(as seen above some take slightly longer)
1000-1730 - 7.5 hour operations window (in which the pilot should take 1 hour break - multiple pilots could negate this down time, CDT clock doesn’t stop in breaks).
1730-1830 close down
1830-1930 - travel made it back just in time for the CDT to expire.
that sounds like a fault with the pilots if they cannot get gliders to…glide!
Every VGS slot we have the Cadets are up for 15+ minutes!
sounds like you VGS has a lot of inefficiency.
When i have gone, the next pax is lined up in their parachute with all the briefings done en masse at the beginning of the day.
sounds like a failure in the pilots ability. the last time i went to the VGS we only pushed the aircraft back twice due to a “deep landing” and then then wasn’t long to reset.
I am not sure where the 5 minutes to exit goes.
land.
pilot opens to canopy.
ground crew move in with next pax lined up, unbuckle the cadet, watch their foot on the FLARM device, direct the next pax in, again watching the FLARM device, buckle them in, thumbs up to the pilot, canopy closed.
my point being - choosing 50% capacity that if the VGS is spending more than 50 % of its time trying to stay “current” and “operational” is it actually effective?
for a museum visit i may well spend 8 hours of planning for an 8 hour day, but for a repeating monthly event, say shooting, i only ever needed to spend time changing the dates on paperwork and the names accordingly based on the attending staff - 2-3 hours max for the whole weekend, and that includes receiving the nominations, and sending out the allocation.
if a VGS is spending so much time (more than 50%) not doing its bread and butter GIF activity then i am beginning to question if the whole VGS system is already broken
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It isn’t a fault of the pilots to glide - if there are no thermals there is not a lot can be done about it really - gravity always wins. I don’t know where you’re gliding from but Topcliffe and Syerston are the only ones with runways long enough to really get to the 2200’+ you need on a still day.
Not really inefficiency because it seems common across all VGS flights. You can see them on glider tracking sites (the GIF ones are easy to spot as they normally come in pairs) Topcliffe, Syerston and Upavon where all showing anywhere between 35 and 50 minutes between the cycles this weekend. Slight problem with your assertation that ground crew can just chuck another cadet in the seat thumbs up and off you go, there is an RA requirement that they have safety and survival brief at the aircraft prior to launch as part of the exercise pre-flight brief, you might want to raise that with your VGS supervisors.
Can’t land at the launch point if there is already an aircraft there, that’s a crash.
VGSs aren’t doing 50% of its time to stay “current” and “operational” no where near it. They’re also not doing more than 50% GIF because its not the only course in town.
40% GIF, 40%GS, 20% higher courses including cadets getting gold or pilots wings.
Not really sure how a museum visit is really relevant to anything, as for shooting those staff attending presumably got qualified at some point on a course/range, why didn’t cadets get the courses instead of those staff who you needed to run the range in the future? I Hope on that range you’re do 90% Air Rifle Trained Shot because that’s your bread and butter or do you offer a range of the 15 other courses as well? which I guess also need staff trained in those particular disciplines?
thank you for explaining that to me.
i was trying to indicate that in my experience at our VGS, flights are at least 15 minutes each from a winch launch, you suggest
which I feel i exceedingly pessimistic
i am not suggesting each flight should have thermals and high altitude, what i am suggesting is a 10 minute flight is incredibly pessimistic given what I have seen achieved at our VGS via winch launches
which backs up my suggestion of ~30 minutes is achievable
remember that maths is based on only 9 cadets flying per aircraft. our wing issues 12 slots per allocation, split between 3 or 4 Squadrons and as far as i can tell, if its a flying day, all get in the air (and often the staff too) so 12 cadets per aircraft is achieved.
so in my experience i have seen no less than 12 cadets fly per day, when operating one aircraft yet you are suggesting a 4.5 -5 hour window to flying 9 cadets is not long enough??
ok so i over simplified it - but the “briefing” is not a 5 minutes SMEAC structure brief, it is pointing out key features (ie touch >this<) should the flight go pear shaped. it will be 5 minutes total getting the pax in, strapped in and ticking off the confirmation of understanding of the evacuation procedure.
referring you back to your previous comment - how do you account for “gravity”? if the aircraft is behaving within the laws of physics, if the aircraft is under the influence of gravity and without an engine, it cannot complete a go around - given there are not crashes weekly at gliding sites I do not accept this as a reason for delays - i have seen gliders landing at the launch point while other aircraft are on the ground at both VGS and civilian clubs without a “crash” so find this comment and odd one to make.
ok now we are getting somewhere - given previously it has been suggest that getting 9 cadets ina 4 hour window on half of the operation days is unachievable based on
and
I am reassured that 50% of the time is not just staying current.
based on
and my pessimistic 50% of the 104 operational days are suitable, that equates to 21 days
(40% of 52 days)
21 days x 5 hours flying window for 12 cadets (as is my experience of VGS) = 252 cadets per aircraft
(21 days x 12 cadets)
extrapolate that out to the fleet of 47 aircraft that is 11,844 Cadets flown per year.
(252 x 47)
would you agree that sounds about right?
on this basis those numbers are accurate (which note are pessimistic as it implies no flying for 50% of the weekends) to get close to have the Cadets population getting airbourne per year the fleet needs to be no less than 80 aircraft
(if 11,844 is capable with 47 aircraft, to reach 20,000 flights = 20,000 ÷ 11,844 = 1.69
thus the capacity needs to increase by 1.69 = 47 x 1.68 = 80 aircraft)
is it any wonder then given this very quick fag packet calculations the Corps feels that VGS are not up to speed at offering 50% of the Cadets 1 flight a year if the fleet is only 60% the size it needs to be??
let me explain then.
a one off event (ie once a year), like a museum visit, or day at an airshow will require a lot of effort on the organisation and admin side to put it all together from scratch.
this might reduce year on year as previous years experience can be used, but as i try to mix up the museum visit each year so we don’t have 5 consecutive years visiting Duxford there is always something new to consider for each event. there may well be several hours of effort putting together the admin which, thanks to changes in policy and Wing expectations, may well have changed (increased) since the previous year.
compare this to the VGS, every Saturday and Sunday, by and large is the same. cadets will turn up, pilots will arrive and the aim is to get in the air.
what happens on Saturday is immediately repeated on the Sunday. the “pre-work” prep is almost all done as it was completed the day before.
there is no need to review and re-write the RA for Sunday’s flying day as it is a carbon copy of what occurred 24 hours previously, likewise the Admin Order is the same as is the JIs, and whatever else is relevant - there is not the same admin burden when operating weekly.
likewise the following weekend there is less to consider as it is a repeat of the week previous.
except there may well be differences in the staff attending so
the names need to change to take account of the various changes in availability between the monthly shooting or in the VGS case, which pilots/ground crew arrive each weekend.
although i accept that pilots need to maintain currency, and indeed keep up their hours, this shouldn’t be such a burden that 50% of the VGS time is spent maintaining operational
you have confirmed this by indicating
but this does not stop me questioning how a 5 hour flying window is seen as optimistic given it is at least a 8 hour day at a VGS for the Cadets.
yes - but this is not at the detriment of Cadet experiences, these qualifications are not completed as part of Wing monthly shooting - 2 hours of the monthly shooting weekend is no set aside for Staff training - that is completed “offline” by the regional teams (SATTS - the equivalent to Syerston if you like)
because cadets do not need a RCO qualification to lie on the point and fire off their 20 rounds?
that would depend on the range in question and weapon type in use - but yes, everyone starts at the beginning and built up, that is the PTS system.
well yes of course. in much the same way a winch driver, pilot or ground crew need training as do those who have qualifications to make shooting happen - but those courses to gain those qualifications are not at the cost of Cadets places. these are gained on top of what is offered to Cadets.
i think you are concentrating on the wrong point i am making though.
way back here i suggested that it should only take ~5 hours to get 9 cadets flying per glider on 50% of the operational days to get half of the Cadets in the Corps in the air, on the expectation the other half are catered by the AEF opportunity thus reaching the 1 flight per year, per cadet target.
it would seem you and others on the VGS side seem to think that even that is optimistic due to “other factors” that i have not considered.
it is interesting when considering the “best case” example, that the VGS are only just going to achieve half of flying targets on the Corps.
104 flying days (52 Saturdays + 52 Sundays)
at 40% allocation to GIF = 42 operational days allocated to GIFs
(ie in a year there is the same as 42 full days allocated to provide GIFs)
If there are 42 days in a year for GIFs
and 40,000 cadets
then 40,000 cadets ÷ 42 GIF days = 952 Cadets flown per GIF day.
if those 952 are split universally across all 47 aircraft > 952 cadets per day ÷ 47 aircraft = 20 Cadets per aircraft. We know this not realistic in a day.
but we also have AEF opportunities to get Cadets in the air, therefore if we split the 1 flight per cadet per year expectation 50-50 we only need to consider 20,000 cadets thus:
20,000 cadets ÷ 42 GIF days = 476 Cadets flown each GIF “day”
476 split across the fleet of 47 aircraft = 476 ÷ 47 = 10 Cadets per aircraft
In my experience 10 Cadets per aircraft per day (on the basis 40% of all flights are allocated to GIfs) is not unrealistic and it would seem if the flying window is indeed longer than 5 hours, still achievable.
However this is on the basis that:
*of the 104 days planned operations, all of them are flyable (ie no weather issues
*of the 47 aircraft in the fleet, all of them are available on every one of the 104 flying days
*there are sufficient pilots and ground crew to operate all 47 aircraft on all 104 flying days
it is therefore disappointing and frustrating and that even on a “best case” scenario the VGS can just about get 50% of the Cadets through a GIF.
on my more realistic 50% of operation days are viable the VGS have the capacity to fly 11,844 Cadets a little over 25%
is it anyone wonder therefore that CFAVs, Cadets, and everyone else is frustrated that there is a lack of flying opportunities for the premium flying youth organisation in the UK if by its own team (on the basis the VGS is 100% for the RAFAC whereas the AEF is not) it can only reach 50% of the Cadets in a best case scenario and realistically we can only expect somewhere in the region of a quarter to a third of the Cadets to experience gliding??
Remove stand downs for Christmas and Easter so that reduces to 96 days.