wokkaman thanks, I will pursue that up the CCF CoC as I don’t believe we’ve been offered any. I’m on emailing terms with the WWO so I could ask to borrow and copy it, but they really ought to supply some to CCF too. God knows we need it!
I believe that was suggested but the Rocks didn’t understand what it meant.
Check with the Test SNCO’s if not let me know who yours is and I will sort
Hang 'em that’s what I say. You would have to be the king of the anally retentive to think this is anything to get excited about.
Let’s not worry about things in the ATC, as long as your feet are precisely at 45° we have nothing else to worry about.
I believe that was suggested but the Rocks didn’t understand what it meant.[/quote]
I would suggest that ‘the Rocks’ have more urgent things to worry about than a poxy drill DVD. How about how soon until their next Op tour\major FTX\exchange visit\ceremonial appearance (probably hard on the heels of the last one) and all the upset that that entails (separation from wife\kids etc). The Regiment is undermanned by approx. 235 Reg & Aux Gunners (latest figures) which equates to nearly 2 Sqns, so commitments come round pretty quickly.
I know it was meant as a tongue-in-cheek comment but if that’s all DI’s have to pick up on, then Christ help the ACO.
I spent the first six months turning my back on people at the word of command…
Hang 'em that’s what I say. You would have to be the king of the anally retentive to think this is anything to get excited about.
Let’s not worry about things in the ATC, as long as your feet are precisely at 45° we have nothing else to worry about.[/quote]It’s an instructional aid.
It should be right, end of. If it’s only ‘OK’ then what’s the point? It’s a lot of wasted effort for something that’ll probably cause as many errors in drill as it’ll fix.
I spent the first six months turning my back on people at the word of command…[/quote]
It took me about that long to manually amend ACP19!
Hang 'em that’s what I say. You would have to be the king of the anally retentive to think this is anything to get excited about.
Let’s not worry about things in the ATC, as long as your feet are precisely at 45° we have nothing else to worry about.[/quote]It’s an instructional aid.
It should be right, end of. If it’s only ‘OK’ then what’s the point? It’s a lot of wasted effort for something that’ll probably cause as many errors in drill as it’ll fix.[/quote]
Is that like the last one? The only thing that DVD was useful for was clarifying that we stand at ease when applauding. Otherwise it was crap.
That old “Cadet NCO Drill Techniques” CD-ROM was a great idea, disappointingly executed.
I haven’t seen the new one yet but I’ve gone through the pre-release. I’d imagine it’s still pretty much the same with a few tweaks and editing errors corrected.
It should be FAR better than the old thing.
However the problem we have with drill in the ATC is that people want every little possibility to be written down, and unfortunately that just isn’t how it works.
In the RAF, if the decision is made to change a movement then it’s promulgated via SWOs/DIs. AP818 isn’t regularly updated so it’s simply a case of “Right chaps, this has changed. It’s now done like so…”.
The Regt have the lead on this since they have their foot in with initial training. Whatever they end up teaching recruits and baby officers is what we all have to work with. For the RAF, again that’s pretty easy because the relevant DIs just teach the new drills when preparing for parades/&c.
In the ATC though it seems that people don’t like to accept that what’s written in AP818 might not mirror current practice.
RAF DIs are aware that AP818 is a ‘best practice guide’ which a good DI will be able to use as appropriate. If something isn’t going to work for a particular situation (let’s say, a parade with limited space) then the DI will use their best judgement and tweak it. That’s just fine.
Some people in the ATC struggle greatly with this concept.
This DVD is going to reflect current practice and so it is likely that a number of drills are going to be different than what is written in AP818.
The only way this is going to work for us is if we can trust the system to update all WWOs/DIs on the current practice to be followed, and then if those within the Wings trust their WWO and DIs; rather than pulling out the book, poking at paragraphs, and trying to put a ‘cocky DI’ back in their box.
I’m keenly aware that not every Squadron has a DI, but that everyone squadron will [should] have someone who teaches drill.
Those people may not want to go the whole hog and become a DI, some may not be able to, but it makes good sense to give them suitable training.
Down this way, the WWO and I intend to run drill courses to equip those people to deliver. DIs are [should be] the Subject Matter Experts, but that doesn’t mean that they should be the only ones to teach.
[quote=“wdimagineer2b” post=22481]RAF DIs are aware that AP818 is a ‘best practice guide’ which a good DI will be able to use as appropriate. If something isn’t going to work for a particular situation (let’s say, a parade with limited space) then the DI will use their best judgement and tweak it. That’s just fine.
Some people in the ATC struggle greatly with this concept.[/quote]
Accepted, but the RAF don’t do drill competitions. When you add a competition element then you rely more and more on something being demonstrably correct - being smart and in time only goes so far.
I know. :unsure:
But in that case all we can hope is that the drill competition sequence and guidance notes are written correctly and suitably to allow everyone to understand the intention.
At the moment that certainly isn’t the case, especially with Banner Drill!
[quote=“incubus” post=22482][quote=“wdimagineer2b” post=22481]RAF DIs are aware that AP818 is a ‘best practice guide’ which a good DI will be able to use as appropriate. If something isn’t going to work for a particular situation (let’s say, a parade with limited space) then the DI will use their best judgement and tweak it. That’s just fine.
Some people in the ATC struggle greatly with this concept.[/quote]
Accepted.[/quote]
While I accept drill needs fluidity, (a personal experience of a CWO trying to form up a flght with a full 14(?) pace march on in a parade square 14 paces from fence to fence is a particular highlight.) However, I think I struggle with how some of the simpler things are so fluid. Why are there so many different ways of stepping left and right? Why can’t everyone just sit down, decide on one and not mess with it? Why are there so many schools of thought on whether arms on dressings are brought up straight behind the person to the side, or brought up bent then extended as the flight shuffles.
And at the end of the day, when these new routines are promulgated, why aren’t they written down and the AP amended? it’s not that difficult to do, even if it was only once a year.
^^^^
i suspect this is a result of our “ex-regular” cousins within the ranks.
those SNCOs who served Queen and Country and have a familiarity with 818 but have not refreshed themselves since.
these fads coming in as different generations pass on their “experience” which is then picked up by the Cadet who in turn become Staff and so the circle continues.
the easiest route is to quote the book but not everyone will believing they know better or “have always done it that way” to ever think that it is wrong!
But now people are telling me the book is wrong? Who are we to believe? THEY ARE FALSE PROPHETS!
[quote=“wdimagineer2b” post=22481]However the problem we have with drill in the ATC is that people want every little possibility to be written down, and unfortunately that just isn’t how it works.
In the RAF, if the decision is made to change a movement then it’s promulgated via SWOs/DIs. AP818 isn’t regularly updated so it’s simply a case of “Right chaps, this has changed. It’s now done like so…”[/quote]I really can’t see how that’s too much to ask.
At the end of the day, if it’s worth changing then surely it’s worth the bother of updating the manual.
I really can’t see that the “well we don’t bother to update the manual so we’ll just let the SME’s spread the rules by word of mouth” attitude would fly with any other aspect of military life… can you imagine if shooting or flying went that way? Yes, clearly the consequences are different but it just seems like an excuse not to bother by someone at some level…
[quote=“MattB” post=22492]I really can’t see how that’s too much to ask.
At the end of the day, if it’s worth changing then surely it’s worth the bother of updating the manual.[/quote]
That may be so and I don’t disagree, but the point I’m making is that for as long as that is the way the RAF are going to do it people have got to let go of the “That’s not what it says in the book!” attitude and trust the DIs.
Granted this brings with it it’s own problems since some of our DIs don’t really cut the mustard.
Hopefully though, with key changes to movements (paces sideways, change step in QT, &c), we might find we’re due an amendment.
[quote]“That’s not what it says in the book!” attitude and trust the DIs.
Granted this brings with it it’s own problems since some of our DIs don’t really cut the mustard.[/quote]
If you use the book, at least everyone is doing it “wrong” but to the same standard…
If you use the DIs as the standard, then you run the risk of a variety of different “wrong” standards… 
I doubt it Steve.
The vast majority of rank and file ex Regulars (except QCS and those other trades who have served as DIs at Halton) have never come across AP818 nor would they ever have been interested in its contents. The drill they have done would have been as taught to them at formal training courses be that basic Recruit, Phase 2, ILMC or JLMC. Even the ex Rocks are unlikely to be much better unless they were QCS (so were Drillers rather than Killers). Drill isn’t something that most RAF personnel do on a regular basis nor is it something that most particularly want to do to be honest. If they get jiffed for a parade, the SWO will tell them ‘do it like this’ and so they do.
Personally, when I returned to the ACO, my drill was way out of date as I had last been taught by a proper DI in 1986, so I made sure that I read ACP 19 (as it then was) as I knew that most cadets let alone the WO/SNCO cadre, would be more up to date.
You mention fads coming in as different generations pass on their “experience” which is then picked up by the Cadet who in turn become Staff and so the circle continues. and this is the key to many problems in the ACO, not just drill. But in my experience, the inertia behind this state are the individuals who have made ‘life careers’ in the ACO from cadet to staff and who flatly refuse to believe that what they were told when they were 13 is now wrong.
It is much harder to tell them that they’re wrong when the drill manual says they’re right though!
Or even if it says that you’re both wrong.