Hi, at the time of writing this i am currently a cadet SNCO and i am aware at this point this should be known to me however the NCO training in my wing is very laid back and not alot is done in the way of training NCOs.
So, here is my problem: I have 2 corporals who are hell bent on making my life as a SNCO a living hell. Continuously these two have been talking nonstop on parade and during lessons either trying to take the out of me or other cadets. This is starting to halt progress in the squadron in terms of discipline and drill standard has fallen significantly. Discipline wise this has given the other, younger cadets the idea that the rank structure doesnât matter. I have repeatedly told them to stop on multiple occasions (sometimes multiple times within a single lesson) and have threatened (and followed through) to go to staff who themselves have told the cpls to stop however this has had very little effect. How can I convince these two to stop without violating my limits of disciplinary action (Air Cadets)
Which staff have you spoken to? If itâs the big man in the office then there is something really wrong.
âTaking the out of youâ âŚthatâs humiliationâŚ
Which is bullyingâŚwhich there is a zero tolerance to and should be investigated formally
looks to me like stripe removalâŚ
Certainly at my Sqn they would be demoted/asked to go home and not come back with the behaviour that is mentioned
So you have just been promoted, were these Cpls with you or have they just been promoted?
Is it just you or are they like it with others as well?
If staff, more the OC has spoken to them and no difference, then itâs out of your hands and time for the OC to speak to parents with the cadets present, to ascertain whatâs going on, this puts parents on the spot as well.
Removing stripes is more aggro than itâs worth. Being unruly is not really a reason.
So youâre happy with having Cpls who will just mess about all night and be disruptive?
Thatâs not what Iâve said.
As a cadet NCO you get to point where you can do no more and it becomes a point for staff to step-in, with being a bit more on their case and as I said the OC speaking to parents. This is no different to how it would work in school. If you correlate NCO with prefect, at some point you report the naughty kids to a member of staff and they deal with it.
Why NCOs today think they should be able to deal with everything that goes on amazes me. Back in the day we as cadet NCOs had a few more tools to deal with cadets who sodded around. A few laps of the compound holding a .303 over their heads, bought all but the most ardent defaulters to heel.
Not to me.If I think it was warranted ive busted cadet NCOs before,They are promoted to set an example if they are consistently failing to do so then they arent fit to hold said rank.
Canât wait to hear the logic and alternative suggestion behind this oneâŚ
You need to go through the process of warnings, allow for improvement etc and part of that is speaking to parents, where the notion of being demoted comes into the equation and put it in writing.
It seems to me (like all of these) there is more to this than stated and we arenât going to know, so going down the demote route is real kangaroo court stuff.
Where are the other cadet NCOs? Are there other SNCOs more senior?
The random comment about NCO training in their Wing. Like thatâs going to make any difference, if the person hasnât got it in them to deal with this and that means passing it on, rather than trying to do it all themselves. I would expect the adult SNCO to have been dealing with this. Our advice is get persistent problems dealt with by staff.
Of course you can just wheel them in, demote them and see what happens, but might get untidy off the squadron.
My advice: sit down with them, and another cdt SNCO, discuss both an action plan, and an expectation plan for both sides, ensure they fully understand their roles and responsibilities as cdt NCOs, get THEM to set goals using SMARTER principles and GROW reports, ensure they fully understand both CDRILS, and LEADERS mnemonics, hold the action plan down as a 3 month review, with small reviews carried out every 6 weeks to see how theyâre getting on, you never know, they might actually be acting put because they feel unsupported by their CoC
If I were in your position, I would think about it first. Is there a possibility either of them could be jealous of you about something? With most squadrons it is usually due to jealousy of rank. I need more information for a more accurate conclusion. But anyway, assuming this is the problem as to why they are misbehaving, I would give them a little more lee-way. By this, I donât mean letting them take advantage of their rank and letting them talk back, but for example if you are continually shouting at them or making them clean up or something similar to this every time they muck about and you dislike it, they will react. They will attempt to prevail you due to cadet ego. If I am to be perfectly honest with you if you shout at them and it doesnât work the first time, they are most likely doing it for the reaction, since they know they can get away with such behaviour. In these stated circumstances I would calmly tell them as an NCO-NCO âThis behaviour is under the expected standards required, I would appreciate you to cooperate with what I am asking you to do please.â If they do not listen you could tell them that you are trying to speak to them in a civil manner as it is fair to give them a chance at being an adult. If the hassle continues to persist I would warn them firmly but not raise the voice at them. They will not know how to retaliate against you if you change your disciplinary techniques. On the other hand if you happen to be one of those silent-standby types (which from your statement I am assuming you arenât) I would completely explode at them. To gain authority you need the upper hand which can only be achieved by catching them unexpected and then taking charge. If they still do not listen, Iâd inform the ACO of their behaviour. If you feel like nothing worse will result in you doing this, before squadron go to him/her and tell her what you plan to do and request to keep an eye out.
Has this been reported to Staff on the Sqn please?
Firstly speak to the Cpls seperate from the Cdts with a witness present in the form of another Cdt SNCO or a Staff member whos there just as a witness if no other SNCO Cdts on the Sqn.
If this dosent work or has already been done with no result, then its time to assend the matter to the Sqn Staff SNCOs if you have any, or a Sqn Officer whos not the OC if your Sqn has one.
If then theres no improvement then this needs escalating to the CO vis the Sqn Staff
This follows the chain of command and desent skip anyone. It may also resolve matters before getting to the OC.
If youâve followed all these phases already and theres been no improvement or interest in resolving this from the Staff, then can you say what Wing your in please?
If youâve followed the CoC on your Sqn and things havent improved, you are entitled to speak to the Wing Staff Office responsible for your Sqn, youâd request the meeting through your Sqn Staff. He should then ask the Wing Discip Team to visit your Sqn in the hope of resolving this issue.
Why do we get this âget Wing involvedâ line?
There have been problem cadets since time immemorial and get dealt with at home. What generally happens is they donât get promoted or do any of the activities and if they ask, they are told. Had many conversations like that with cadets and several parents. Result they either get on with it or leave. When our kids were at school any school trips they were told quite explicitly as were we at trip meetings, if behaviour standards fall you wonât go and parents may lose some money, like the deposit.
I wouldnât even send them on any of the cadets courses that seem to have a Hydra like quality, because as much as I see them as a punishment, they mighy enjoy them.
Should the Sqn not bve able to solve the problem, due to Staff on the Sqn not being interested then there is always a go to Wing option - and it gives the Wing Staff something to do 
Ideally things should always be sorted at Sqn level, however this dose not always happen
Because it says in ACP20 that Wing have to be notified at certain points in the disciplinary process?
Yes, but heâs infallible and everyone higher in the CoC is only in it for their own gratification.
Wow, not seen it quite that bad before. In the first instance, if youâre taking the parade and before the staff arrive⌠I would bring the Squadron to the shun and then instruct both NCO to remove themselves from your parade. Using words like âCpl x and Cpl Y, dismiss yourselves and get off my paradeâ. This would send a very clear message to the two individuals. If they refuse then instruct one of the other NCOâs or senior cadets to and get the most appropriate member of staff, ideally the SWO. This will reinforce your chain of command. The said member of staff will then need to deal with the two in a way that is fitting for our organisation. After the parade I would then have a chat with the SWO and then SWO & Cplâs for a very one way conversation about expectations. If after that, the two NCOâs are still causing problems then the SWO should escalate to the CO and follow whatever disciplinary action they see fit.
Itâs time to take control and stop the behaviour from the ground up otherwise the Squadronâs discipline will nose dive and who knows where that will end up.
Let us know what happens!
OK what are Wing going to do?
Start the process again and do what youâve already done?
In my 35 years of experience in various roles, each of these stages has brought with it exposure problems and learning how to deal with them. As and when we get a problem cadet and it rarely reaches me, they are left, as the various WOs and adult SNCOs Iâve had under my wing, tell them, in no uncertain terms where they stand. I have observed these especially adult SNCOs taking a leaf out of the âold manâs bookâ and things very rarely get as far as me, as it resolves itself one way or the other.
If you have unit cdrs and staff without the experience to deal with things, they might feel they need to get Wing involved.
I found through experience talking is a very effective measure. Much of my talk revolves around they choose to be here, itâs not compulsory and as such if you donât like the expectations, you donât have to be here. If you continue to misbehave you will not be doing but be expected to be doing , not doing the latter will not endear you to me and you can put any thoughts of promotion out of your head. This has seemed to work for me over the years and as I said speak with parents as well.
Then it moves to, if you want to stay what needs to happen to stop this behaviour and move you on and enjoy your time with us. They tell us what needs to change in them, so they own it. Iâve seen this in capability measures at work.
Iâve heard the adult SNCO use the essence of this for the new intake discip chat.
The first sentence was âstolenâ from my 6th Form form tutor, after a few of us thought lunchtime sessions in the pub were a good idea.
I know my WSO would wonder if Iâd banged my head, if I called him to deal with a problem.