I am under no illusion that my Army based drill may differ slightly from “RAF drill”. But, to what extent? None greater than the ones that all individuals have.
I was told on my SSIC that I would be “assessed” as to whether I was good enough? This I found very insulting. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I’m not precious about the whole thing but to be told this having been an instructor at the Depot was laughable!
As for not being “up to scratch”. I don’t pretend to be the greatest All Arms Drill Instructor ever. However, I AM an All Arms Drill Instructor, I am an All Arms Advanced Drill Instructor and I have completed two tours as a Drill Instructor at my Depot.
I don’t wish to sound immodest, but I rather think that it might not be me who’s up to scratch but others who feel threatened.
However, I feel now that I have made my point. I do stress that I only made comment on this thread in the first place because I sincerely felt for Zinggy. Nevertheless, I have kind of hijacked the thread with my own moans of which I respectfully beg forgiveness.
:whistle:
RC/Zinggy,
I wasn’t suggesting you weren’t any good, I was simply trying to find something to try to justify this absurbity.
[quote=“pEp” post=16126]RC/Zinggy,
I wasn’t suggesting you weren’t any good, I was simply trying to find something to try to justify this absurbity.[/quote]
I see what you are saying and no disrespect intended towards anyone at ATF or any ATC DI but if someone told me that I wasnt up to standard they better be able to back it up with some good evidence.
Would CPD not apply?
[quote=“pEp” post=16126]RC/Zinggy,
I wasn’t suggesting you weren’t any good, I was simply trying to find something to try to justify this absurbity.[/quote]
There is only one thing I can think of why RS/Zinggy have to do this course in spite of their backgrounds and that is the way in which Drill is taught in the ACO is very different to that at a Depot - in as far as the approach to the Squad/Individual (shouting and bawling) and duration of drill sessions. A de-regimentisation if you will.
RS/Zinggy I am not inferring that you do such things, but unfortunately I have witnessed such a thing with the ACO in similar circumstances - chap thought he was back teaching Recruits ina parody of ‘Full Metal Jacket’. Needless to say when he was stopped he couldn’t see the error of his ways. I have no affiliation to ATF either btw!
Gen question - with your backgrounds, why can you not just teach drill without going on the course? As far as I can see (and I don’t meant to denegrate the course), but you will only gain the right to use a Pace Stick when teaching Drill (post completion)?
Probably to uninstall this type of voice
[is that in English
)
Meanwhile, other Depot DS’s applying to the ACO to be DI’s
[quote=“Plt Off Prune” post=16130]Probably to uninstall this type of voice
[is that in English
)[/quote]
Also selective disregard for parts of the Drill Manual :).
[quote=“noah claypole” post=16129][quote=“pEp” post=16126]RC/Zinggy,
I wasn’t suggesting you weren’t any good, I was simply trying to find something to try to justify this absurbity.[/quote]
There is only one thing I can think of why RS/Zinggy have to do this course in spite of their backgrounds and that is the way in which Drill is taught in the ACO is very different to that at a Depot - in as far as the approach to the Squad/Individual (shouting and bawling) and duration of drill sessions. A de-regimentisation if you will.
RS/Zinggy I am not inferring that you do such things, but unfortunately I have witnessed such a thing with the ACO in similar circumstances - chap thought he was back teaching Recruits ina parody of ‘Full Metal Jacket’. Needless to say when he was stopped he couldn’t see the error of his ways. I have no affiliation to ATF either btw!
Gen question - with your backgrounds, why can you not just teach drill without going on the course? As far as I can see (and I don’t meant to denegrate the course), but you will only gain the right to use a Pace Stick when teaching Drill (post completion)?[/quote]
Well the lessons on how to teach drill in AP818 is exactly the same as both the ACO and RAF use the same AP.
As for shouting and bawling Its not really a done thing anymore on RTS most certainly not like you see in films the peoblem is a lot of people that havent been there and done that as it were think that its like an episode of Bad Lads Army and it really isnt anymore
[quote=“noah claypole” post=16129]RC/Zinggy,
Gen question - with your backgrounds, why can you not just teach drill without going on the course? As far as I can see (and I don’t meant to denegrate the course), but you will only gain the right to use a Pace Stick when teaching Drill (post completion)?[/quote]
Noah, this is a very valid point and one that I think can only be fully recognised as a DI. For many, the right to carry a Pace Stick in the ACO is a badge of office. And for someone with no drill experience, going on the SSDIC I’m sure must be a very demanding thing. But the Pace Stick is not a badge of office. It is, when used correctly, a training aid. In that sense, it is no different from a Smartboard in a classroom, a lollypop for sight alignment in shooting or a compass and a map on a table for map reading.
Unfortunately, the SSDIC does not go into the intricacies of using the stick for pacing out, pacing in, pace measurement, markers or any other such thing. When teaching, and I use the word teaching rather than instructing, the stick should always be open, never closed. How can you be designated as an Instructor in a subject when the key training aid to the very basic aspects of the subjects cannot be used.
Whether I am allowed or not under ACO regulations to carry a pace stick, I will. The stick is merely a training aid and should not be carried by anyone if they are unable to use it for what it was designed (sic.) for. After all, would you want someone teaching you all the L98A2 lessons if they’ve only ever trained on an Air Rifle? Same principle.
As for Zinggy’s comment above about backing up their comments, “Here, here”.
[quote=“zinggy” post=16132][quote=“noah claypole” post=16129]RC/Zinggy,
[/quote]
Well the lessons on how to teach drill in AP818 is exactly the same as both the ACO and RAF use the same AP.
As for shouting and bawling Its not really a done thing anymore on RTS most certainly not like you see in films the peoblem is a lot of people that havent been there and done that as it were think that its like an episode of Bad Lads Army and it really isnt anymore[/quote]
Step back twenty years and yes, DI’s were a great and terrible thing. But as in all things, they have changed. Indeed, the pointing at recruits with the closed stick was even frowned upon when I was Di-ing. Hence, when coupled with the training aspect, the open stick is seen as less intimidating.
[quote=“Racing Stick” post=16133][quote=“noah claypole” post=16129]RC/Zinggy,
Gen question - with your backgrounds, why can you not just teach drill without going on the course? As far as I can see (and I don’t meant to denegrate the course), but you will only gain the right to use a Pace Stick when teaching Drill (post completion)?[/quote]
Noah, this is a very valid point and one that I think can only be fully recognised as a DI. For many, the right to carry a Pace Stick in the ACO is a badge of office. And for someone with no drill experience, going on the SSDIC I’m sure must be a very demanding thing. But the Pace Stick is not a badge of office. It is, when used correctly, a training aid. In that sense, it is no different from a Smartboard in a classroom, a lollypop for sight alignment in shooting or a compass and a map on a table for map reading.
Unfortunately, the SSDIC does not go into the intricacies of using the stick for pacing out, pacing in, pace measurement, markers or any other such thing. When teaching, and I use the word teaching rather than instructing, the stick should always be open, never closed. How can you be designated as an Instructor in a subject when the key training aid to the very basic aspects of the subjects cannot be used.
Whether I am allowed or not under ACO regulations to carry a pace stick, I will. The stick is merely a training aid and should not be carried by anyone if they are unable to use it for what it was designed (sic.) for. After all, would you want someone teaching you all the L98A2 lessons if they’ve only ever trained on an Air Rifle? Same principle.
As for Zinggy’s comment above about backing up their comments, “Here, here”.[/quote]
Forgive me, but surely this is exactly the sort of attitude they’re trying to stop?
I don’t agree with your decision so I’m going to do what I want to, is basically what you’ve just said. Now as stupid as making you do the course again is, it seems you’re being just as childish and throwing your toys out of the pram because someone has said no to you.
[quote=“pEp” post=16136]Forgive me, but surely this is exactly the sort of attitude they’re trying to stop?
I don’t agree with your decision so I’m going to do what I want to, is basically what you’ve just said. Now as stupid as making you do the course again is, it seems you’re being just as childish and throwing your toys out of the pram because someone has said no to you.[/quote]
Then what are they to do? Waste their time by doing the course or decline and be accused of childishness?
I think its the ACO that needs to grow up…
[quote=“Racing Stick” post=16133][quote=“noah claypole” post=16129]RC/Zinggy,
Gen question - with your backgrounds, why can you not just teach drill without going on the course? As far as I can see (and I don’t meant to denegrate the course), but you will only gain the right to use a Pace Stick when teaching Drill (post completion)?[/quote]
Whether I am allowed or not under ACO regulations to carry a pace stick, I will. [/quote]
If you can’t follow the rules no matter how strange they seem at the time, how can you expect your cadets to? That is not a role model.
[quote=“Plt Off Prune” post=16143][quote=“Racing Stick” post=16133][quote=“noah claypole” post=16129]RC/Zinggy,
Gen question - with your backgrounds, why can you not just teach drill without going on the course? As far as I can see (and I don’t meant to denegrate the course), but you will only gain the right to use a Pace Stick when teaching Drill (post completion)?[/quote]
Whether I am allowed or not under ACO regulations to carry a pace stick, I will. [/quote]
If you can’t follow the rules no matter how strange they seem at the time, how can you expect your cadets to? That is not a role model.[/quote]
Woah fella! No need to get personal and start questioning who is and who isn’t a role model!
This is not what this thread is about. Look, it is quite simple. As I have mentioned now goodness knows how many times, but clearly need to reaffirm it, the pace stick is a training aid. I will use a training aid which I’m trained to use, which is more than can be said for many others. This thread had been interesting and useful. Plenty of constructive comments. Clearly that is no longer the case.
What I don’t get is if someone has done P Coy at Brize they get to wear the wings on uniform in the ACO as they have earned it but if someone is an Ex DI they don’t get to use anything they have earned even though like RS has said it is a tool nothing else infact one could argue that you CAN NOT teach drill properly without one. To be fair I don’t use mine for various reasons the main one being I think its stored at my Dads house (Not Really sure…)
Point of order, P Coy doesn’t qualify you for wings.
Its not just the DI course though.
I came to thecorpswith Valid shooting and range courses I hadcompletedat both Brecon and Warminster with the Small Arms School Corps using more than just the L98, yet I was told where not acceptable… I gave up that fight in the end only to be asked to go on some of these shortened courses theACO approve of… I have declined them choosingto steer clear of any range or shooting activity.
Point of order, P Coy doesn’t qualify you for wings.[/quote]
The point is they do a course and qualify and get to keep what they are presented with
As I’ve often quoted on here, I had the same issue as Topcat. I came to the Corps with a SA(B)90 ticket and the local SATT tried to make me jump through all manner of hoops but settled in the end, for me doing their 4-yearly requal under the guise of ‘conversion’.
They even threatened to remove my qual if I didn’t join the SATT, their rationale being that ‘only SATT members can hold a SA(B)90’. When I reminded them that they could only remove it on the grounds of lack of competency or currency; and I challenged them to do either, they backed-off. I still exercise the qual today but it’s indicative of what people have to go through just like RS and Zinggy are experiencing now.
No wonder fewer and fewer ex-service personnel are coming into this organization.