Decision day 23 JUN 2016

Adult Staff The Staff Mess
1

The waggons are gaining momentum.

Personally I want out. I don’t see any point in staying in, as the eu will become larger and increasingly federal in its inevitable move to be a super state and we’ll have even less say in our own dealings. At the moment trying to get 28 countries to agree is a nonsense, as it is it, the eu issues an edict and then each country buys into it to varying degrees. So the position of Brussels/Strasbourg issuing laws/acts as a national govt will be inevitable if the eu is to work in the longer term. However like all socialist experiments it will be a mish mash because one size doesn’t fit all, but to make it work will require more oversight to enforce and cost more and more in all ways.

Leaving would realise c.£14 thousand million pa back into the country’s coffers.

The suggestion that if we leave that countries and companies will stop trading with us is folly, given we import from lots of european countries. Could you see the likes of VW, Mercedes and BMW say we’re not trading with Britain anymore? Or the French not selling us wine or cheese? WRT exports if tariffs are applied to what we export, we reciprocate on imports and it becomes stalemate.

I recall when we went into the ERM and then came out again (thankfully) and then again when we didn’t go into the euro on both occasions the Treasury and economists said we won’t get investment etc and the economy would suffer. Never happened. The ‘recession’ when we left the ERM was because we’d been in the ERM. All the stay comments are based on scare stories that we will fail as a nation which says little about out tenacity as a country. I don’t think so, I think we can trade much easier with Commonwealth countries and others if we are in control and set the T&C wrt trade and general relations, and not some faceless overpaid bureaucrats in Brussels / Strasbourg. The euro doesn’t work in a one size fits all way, but the eu is so blinded in how it works, reverting to individual currencies, which would suit many of the euro member countries is not going to happen. I would suggest that the politicians and businessmen in the ‘remain’ group, like the idea of getting a lucrative seat on the eu gravy train when they retire and become overpaid and anonymous, pitching up on tele once in a while. It amused me a few years ago our MEP turned up at a parade and only one of the Labour cllrs knew who he was. When he was introduced after polite couple of words, we just got on talking with the MP and Cllrs we knew.

We should have taken the hint from de Gaulle who effectively stopped the moves to join the eec in the 60s, as was in the late 50s and 60s and when we weren’t welcomed to join the iron, coal and steel trading block as we were effectively too strong at that time. I tend to think we joined when we were at a low and were able to be taken advantage of. Coupled by UK politicians keen to get a non-elected job on a damn good screw when they were either kicked out or retired from UK politics, who did nothing to stop the increasing interference from people who we had no say in running OUR affairs. The only UK politician to show any gumption was Margaret Thatcher, who it seems (watching a documentary) just wore down the eu leaders into giving her what she wanted.

All I remember when we joined in the 70s are ‘lakes’ and ‘mountains’ as European policy at the time, used artificial means to keep prices of commodities high and sell these off cheaply outside Europe or just let them rot. Quotas and subsidies for producers of this and that that are just restrictive practices to benefit the small producers.

I don’t think that the eu (more exactly France, Germany and Benelux) want us to leave as if we do it could fall apart as other countries (such as Spain, Portugal, Eire and Greece) may see that we do well outside and they could do better controlling their own destinies. This would leave Germany, France and the others having to dig deeper to keep the “little” countries happy. Eu membership suits ‘small countries’ as they get the grants etc for development at the expense of the bigger countries. I’ve not seen any benefit that I would see as directly attributable to being in the eu throughout my adult and working life. There are a few groups that I’ve heard moaning that they won’t get funding if we leave as they rely heavily on eu money.

The irritating thing is that we aren’t out on June 24th, there is a long process to get away from the idiots. The really annoying thing is a ‘stay’ vote won’t consign the idiots in UKIP to the history books.

2

Out.

This is randomers text to beat minim post count.

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3

In fact, edit to add: the lies being spun by the conservatives over this matter is frankly astonishing and I wouldn’t be surprised if later down the line it comes out as some illegal activity much in the same way that a handful of police forces are investigating the conservative committee for fraudulent accounts during the last election (battle bus). A mistake? Really? How many times did that mistake happen?

4

I’m out too. I don’t wish to be subjugated to a European Federal State which is just a variation of the former USSR.

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5

I’m an out mainly based on imigration and legal interference.

From a Business standpoint we will suffer for a short while as we only really import from 2 EU Coutries Germany & Spain. Spain will very quickly set up a trade agreement as they can’t afford to be without us. The Germans will take more time for political reasons but you can bet big money on the Motor Industry putting huge pressure on their government to come to an agreement.

If we do vote out our best bet for trade is Trump becoming President of the US as he will be keen to get a trade agreement through quickly, whereas Clinton is towing the Obama line.

6

I am conflicted and I find that many of the same arguments I saw in the IndyRef (I am a unionist) are being recycled in the EURef.

My gut feeling is that while the EEC was a useful mechanism we should never have gone deeper into the European experiment than that. This doesn’t necessarily mean that the best move for the country now is to extract itself again but I need to do more research.

The general idea of a more united and collaborative Europe is inherently sound; the idea of a federated state of Europe is not. The structure of europe needs to be radically modified and cleaned up to a far greater extent than the “trim round the ears” that DC negotiated before calling the referendum.

My biggest fear of a Remain vote is not that we do not leave the EU, it is that it is taken as a sign that “Yay! We love the EU” and the country ends up dragged balls-deep into the edifice.

It may simply be for the best to vote Leave - tell them they’ve had their fun but it is time to get back to reality.

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7

I’m out as well for various reasons.

8

It’s strange really, EVERYBODY I’ve spoken to on the subject whether in a business or personal capacity, intend to vote out. Where do the polls find people who intend to vote remain? I’ve not yet met one single person who’s in favour of staying in the EU.

9

I agree although I suspect there is more spin in this campaign than ever before. I’ve spoken to people from various bits of the U.K. (Not just in my consitneucny seat which are likely to vote similar to me) and yet they all want out or are sat on the fence. I’ve not met one single person who wants to stay in.

10

And how much of that do we get back already from Europe in rebates? Also alot of that would have to be spent on our own infrastructure picking up the slack of some of the stuff Europe does for us.

Quite clearly there will be a pause/decline as new trade agreements are arranged and in that time these countries might find it better to keep trading within the EU rather than setting up new agreements with us. And while yes setting up tarrifs etc would cause reciprocations and lead to a stalemate theres nothing stopping it from happening.
The amount of uncertainty from leaving the EU is causing the problems, no the potential realities.

So if we leave that might cause other countries to leave shattering a global powerhouse, whats that going to do for the world economy? Again uncertainty coming in to it.
Also these so called “little” countries even if we did leave we would probably still end up giving them some sort of support, such as through NATO or other such groups.
So what has Europe done for you?
Well it gives you freedom to live, work and retire anywhere in Europe, It sustains millions of jobs, Your holiday is much easier - and safer, It means you’re less likely to get ripped off and screwed over by business and companies, It offers greater protection from organised crime and cyber-crime, and multiple other things that aren’t in the forefront of peoples minds or eyes but are still important

And you saying that the out campaign isn’t using the most extreme/ exaggerating the facts

And you really think it’s a trump is a good idea? if he does become POTUS then a lot of countries will begin to distance themselves from him and if we’ve cosyied up to him that might put other countries off us.

Personally the amount of uncertainty produced from leaving europe just isnt worth it and what we could supposedly gain doesnt out-weigh what we’d lose if we did leave. As a student i’ve found a large majority of us want to stay in, and as students the outcome of this will effect us more than those of the older members of the country as we will have to live our entire lives with this outcome just as we’re going out into the job market.

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11

I have they all follow blind obedience to the Scottish nazi party…

All my friends and colleagues are for out

12

Aha! We’ve found a remainer!

Lots of good points there Ziggy, but I fear that some of your others aren’t quite as accurate as you believe.

Firstly, what percentage of infrastructure costs do the EU pick-up on our behalf? Secondly, yes, countries will still trade with the EU as you suggest but what makes you think they’d stop trading with us completely?

A global powerhouse? The EU is falling apart. It can’t deal with the current crises it faces, it places burdensome regulations on small businesses and a large number of those in other countries don’t actually want the European project anymore. It’s too large, too cumbersome, too unaccountable and too unelected for a lot of people’s liking. Sadly, the EU elite aren’t listening, simply because they don’t have to.

One thing that Cameron is entirely right about and that is the chance of war in Europe. Except it will be Europe versus Russia, thanks to the current EU policy of expansion. That means the EU is running a very real risk of sucking all its member states into another unwanted war and NATO will have to pick up the pieces. That’s if there’s any pieces left to pick up after Putin decides to use his nuclear weapons.

Holidays easier and safer? Easier, yes, safer - I doubt it. Just look at what happened in Paris and Brussels recently.

Ripped-off? Every single time I’ve been to France, I end up getting ripped-off to some degree. Both my sisters live in France (and I often wonder why) and they are ripped-off by the French authorities at every turn simply because they’ll enforce their rules against Brit expats but not against the indigenous population.

Protection from organised crime? EU free movement rules allow convicted foreign criminals into this country on a regular basis not to mention that there are several poorer countries waiting in the wings to join the great European Project which will have the effect of driving up member states contributions. This will result in greater strain on existing infrastructure when they exercise their right to free movement, simply because we won’t have the money to invest.

Another USSR? No thanks, I think I’ll stick with voting out. I don’t doubt for one minute that there will be a degree of pain in leaving the EU but I’d be fairly confident that the shorter-term pain would be worth it for longer-term gain.

13

As someone who works in Policing in London I can tell you that we have a huge imported crime problem from Eastern Europe. This encompasses huge amounts of Drink related behaviour, and Domestic Violence on your local level due to different standards of acceptable behaviour. Plus the organised crime which is everything from pickpockets to beggars to prostitutes and it is a huge problem. The worst part is that even if we manage to deport these criminals they come straight back.

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14

I’m slightly on the fence, but largely leaning towards remain.

At the end of the day, whatever happens if we leave it’s going to be uncertain, and market forces tend not to like uncertainty. I reckon that the economic cost of that will far outweigh any benefits we might have gained by leaving, for a very long time.

15

I’m glad that 76 years ago my fathers generation we prepared to risk slightly more than “possible economic uncertainty”.
Brexit the Movie

16

Sometimes a leap into the dark may be the better option in the long run. My father and his two brothers also fought in WW2 and it surely wasn’t to hand Europe to Germany. All three were anti-common market as it was back in the day.

We know what we’ll get if we stay and that’s more of the same leading to us being absorbed into this federal superstate which will reach into every facet of people’s lives and which will eventually implode with extremely negative and far-reaching implications for the global economy.

Far better to get out now, even if it triggers the collapse of the EU with other countries following the UK’s example in due course. Then there won’t be any trade barriers or nightmarish bureaucracy or unelected officials deciding how we have to live our lives.

17

The amount I mention is nett of our current rebate add in our rebate and it’s closer £18 thousand million.

As for what has Europe done for me, none of those things listed have any interest to me and thus far our kids (apart from the standard “18-30” holiday) have shown little or no interest in making the continent part of their life. I knew people who lived and worked in Europe (non military) long before we were allowed to join the menagerie.

I don’t actually think that easing of travel has made things better. A Europe without borders has exhibited very significant problems in the last few years which has been fully exploited by criminal elements, who can travel unabated and checked. One of my old schoolmates who has been an HGV driver for 30 years said that as soon as the borders went down, it made ‘informal’ smuggling ie booze and baccie much easier, before that it was a little more fraught. He said he came off the foreign runs 4 years ago when one of his mates got caught with people in his trailer and went through hell (lost his job and very nearly lost his marriage and house) as he had to prove he had nothing to do with it.

Not sure if you understand cyber crime but it isn’t constrained by borders and localism. The stories I read about although some people are local, attacks can be initiated from anywhere

Apart from the single currency taking a lot of the joy out of travel (ie different currencies), the single currency and all that it brings (a one size fits all economic measures) with it has been a nightmare for every country, even France and Germany (the architects of this nonsense) who failed to keep their economy within the limits early on, but it was overlooked. I recall when the euro was introduced there were reports that prices went up across Europe as businesses rounded things up to the nearest ½ euro to avoid change or just put things up. For those of us old enough to remember the same happened when we went decimal in 1971, when a pound previously 240 pennies, became one of 100 pennies. Things were priced in new and old for a while but that soon stopped and things went up. Which was devastating for my pocket money and the bits I got for getting dad’s baccie.

As pointed out a lot of smaller (economically than us) countries have suffered under single currency/economic constraints and I think is the uncertainty of leaving for them is greater. However if we lead (we are lead nation not a follower) and leave, it might well give them the impetus to leave. I don’t imagine things might be difficult for a while, but jobs on the continent will still exist and be open to Brits, trade will continue like it always has as initially (annoyingly) we have to go through a load of red tape and new trade agreements etc put in place. We are too big a market to be made difficult to trade with, when you go out how many French, German, Italian and Spanish cars do you see, how many ‘foreign’/foreign made foods are there on supermarket shelves etc? We’ve had contential ‘foods’ on the shelves for decades Do you think that businesses across europe will want their govts or the eu parliament to make things awkward, remembering businesses run countries not politicians, something Labour failed to grasp for years and having briefly cottoned on have forgotten again.

The biggest problem is the increasing federalistic mindset in the eu political elite, which will reduce national govts to little more than borough councils. These people will make laws etc that will be a one size fits no one, which will have to have so many local alterations as to make them unworkable. If you are going to have eu wide policies then that’s what you should have applied in exactly the same way. I remember watching a Grand Designs and the English family bought a plot of land in France and built a house using old tyres filled with earth and used other waste items for parts of the house, When asked why they weren’t doing this in England, first the land was cheaper but more importantly the same eu legislation was over interpreted in the UK such that tyres were waste material and couldn’t be used like this, but in france it was OK. I imagine there are more instances of this sort of thing across the eu with the Eastern and Mediterranean fringes being far more lax in the interpretation and implementation than some of the bigger countries, with us being the most anal. To that end we don’t need interference from foreigners we have enough anally retentive idiots in our public sector to make things difficult. I’ve worked with enough Europeans to know that a lot gets lost in translation and some technical terms have no equivalent in other languages.

Gunner is spot on that eventually the federal model with implode and then explode, for the very reason that one size doesn’t fit all. This doesn’t really work in individual countries as each region has it’s own ‘problems’, so how on earth it is supposed to work across 28+ countries with all of their individual needs and regions, remains a mystery. The only way to make it work is to actively enforce it by martial rule … oh wait Boris was pilloried last weekend for that analogy. The only way to make that work is to have one language across the whole of Europe …

The European Commission has announced an agreement whereby English will be the official language of the EU, rather than German, which was the other contender. Her Majesty’s Government conceded that English spelling had room for improvement and has therefore accepted a five-year phasing in of “Euro-English”._
> In the first year, “s” will replace the soft “c”. Sertainly, this will make sivil servants jump for joy. The hard “c” will be dropped in favour of the “k”, Which should klear up some konfusion and allow one key less on keyboards.
> There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year, when the troublesome “ph” will be replaced with “f”, making words like “fotograf” 20% shorter.
> In the third year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted to reach the stage where more komplikated changes are possible. Governments will enkourage the removal of double letters which have always ben a deterent to akurate speling. Also, al wil agre that the horible mes of the silent “e” is disgrasful.
> By the fourth yer, peopl wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing “th” with “z” and “w” with “v”.
> During ze fifz yer, ze unesesary “o” kan be dropd from vords kontaining “ou” and similar changes vud of kors be aplid to ozer kombinations of leters. After zis fifz yer, ve vil hav a reli sensibl riten styl. Zer vil be no mor trubls or difikultis and everivun vil find it ezi to understand ech ozer. ZE DREM VIL FINALI COM TRU!

18

If I can insert my 10p’s worth…

I am in favour of staying in and fighting nonsense from within!

The European parliament should be given far more teeth and the unelected ‘kommisars’ (oops…commissioners) should be properly elected somehow and not just appointed. The commission should be fully accountable to the parliament.
There is the usual ‘jobs for the boys’ syndrome that you get everywhere of course.

The organisations accounts should be fully published and be easy for all to read.

Personally I find it easier to deal with just Euro’s when on the continent and v easy to get around. Re entering the UK is like trying to get into the old iron curtain , even with a UK passport!!

There is a lot of the 'little Englander ’ syndrome ref the debate, some of which is darn right nasty and has shades of 70 plus years ago!!! Some of the ‘professional’ politicians rhetoric is very ‘interesting’!!!

Everything will not be sweet and rosy if we stay in or get out, which ever way the spin doctors word it all. Problems like immigration, law and order and NHS useage will not mysteriously go away, in or out.

19

I question our ability to fight the nonsense in the face of the monolith and staying within ensures that we are subject to that same nonsense.

Having crossed the iron curtain a couple of times in the past (even on established, simplified routes) I disagree with this comparison. I was at first loaded onto a train in Bonn and made my way to Berlin. Border guards checked the entire train then the doors were chained shut for the transit through E.Germany. Checkpoint Charlie was also fairly oppressive, with no guards allowed on the coach and passports pressed against the glass.

None of that really compares to effectively sailing through UK customs and immigration on flights back from the continent, US or South America. The current “EU” fast-track would presumably go in favour of a UK gate, with more people being subjected to the same scrutiny as the current non-EU queue.

20

I don’t actually think you can fight from within. It’s a corrupt irrelevance covering 28 countries with more backdoor concessions / deals etc to get things through. Look at how many failed, past it and poor politicians from the UK who have ingratiated themselves to become MEPs or Commissars on a good screw and are all singly more anonymous and vacuous than a busload of UK MPs. In this country they’d only be any good to do HIGNFY and similar.

TBH I like the fact you need a passport to get back into the UK, the border free zone only works best for criminals.

I biggest threat to this vote is that people fail to engage.