I would be keen to undertake the training, but the distance to Leconfield and the time off needed immediately prohibits this. There must be many other providers who can deliver this in a much shorter time period.
When this course first started I remember being told (and not sure if correctly) that HQAC had funded a minibus at Leconfield to facilitate the courses. Have they basically got their return on investment now and are therefore willing to look at other means of delivering this training?
There are lots of private providers. Youâll just pay a fortune, compared with using the military route which is free. Thatâs the same with any âcivilianâ qualifications gained through the military route.
As I understand it the local provision is just via a distributed driver training contract where MT sections can get local training and the costs are attributed to a UIN. At least thatâs the understanding I got from discussing with the MT section about +E training.
iâve completed the course and the survey (yes)
As mentioned Leconsfield is a dump. The mess/room i stayed in was the most tired of the all i have stayed in and the evening bar was dead, the food was standard and did have an odd ordering system - ordering the next meal at the one youâre eating - ie order lunch at breakfast, and dinner at lunch.
In the evenings I ended up driving off camp, one night walking around York the other at the beach. There was an JRM with evening sports bar with âbopâ but I didnât feel in the mood, and not knowing anyone else would have been weird
the best element for me was the instructor - a civilian who has since retired (heâd handed in his notice when I was on the course). he was one of the best instructors I have had.
this isnât unlike the format for my course. there was three of us, all CFAVs. each did 45 minutes of driving then we stopped for a break (the instructors fag break).
I seem to âget itâ straight away, but then I am familiar with driving Transits so the size didnât bother me and was clear than by day2 my â45 minutesâ was shorter than the others on the course. I passed on Wednesday morning with fewer minors than when i passed in my B licence!
I feel personally if it had been 1-2-1 I could have completed this in a day, morning for training, afternoon for test so agree with @MikeJenvey it doesnât need a full week.
but a âpassâ is a âpassâ
that same micra driver is entitled to drive a 300hp Ferrari or 2 tonne, Land Rover based on their B-Cat âpassâ - if someone reaches the criteria they get to drive the vehicle regardless of hours behind the wheel in training or familiarity with the the geographical location or size/weight of the vehicle.
I would argue that the test is there to determine if you are competent, and to a degree also measures âconfidenceâ (one of my minors was not pulling out soon enough) it is the examiners opinion that youâre safe behind the wheel and can drive in accordance with a set minimum standard. I am not saying the first time solo someone wonât crash, but the result is black and white, pass/fail. just like a car licence. Some pass first time after 5 lessons, other take 55 lessons and 5 tests
my instructor was great and the course is set up to get you to pass - and is taught that way. there are cones to start turning at, cone to remove the full lock and markers on the vehicle to line up with.
without the set up and tuition i am sure most would struggle but if you follow the instructions and remember them so you can do it without them, it is no more challenging than putting a sling on the L98A2 - ie there is the right way, and plenty of wrong ways, but once you know it, just do it!
I found the course frustrating in that we jump through the same hoops as a D driver (medical, theory test, eye test) but leaving the hanger we turned left to the minibus and spent 2 days driver it, when we were just as entitled to turn right to the 50 seater coach.
i appreciate there is no need for CFAVs to have Full D licence, we donât have them available to us via White Fleet or SOVs, but it is like going all the way through RAF selection, ticking all the boxes to be a pilot, and then being told on first day of training youâll get to fly a gliderâŚ
with regards moving to a more local parent station i can see there being challenges with the DSA.
Leconsfield is near Hull, a city with test centre, a 22 mile one way trip
not all parent stations have conveniently placed DSA test centres for the examiners to visit drop of a hat (our tests are booked were booked at the end of day1/start of day 2 for Day 3). I also suggest DST has a good working relationship which they have built up as a major training centre with the Hull Branch of the DVLA test centre.
I cannot see the same relationship with ad hoc training centres having that same flexibility and access to examiners â a quick look at some RAF Stations the ones I checked are within 35 minutes (one way) of a test centre, but will they have access to the examiners to be able to book with as little as 24 hour notice?
For those not in the know
Tests can be completed either Wednesday or Friday. The instructor decides by the end of your driving on day 1 if youâll reach the standard by the end of day 2 and if yes books a test for Wednesday. if they cannot see potential theyâll hold off and use the time for more training for a test later in the week
If you do fail the test on Wednesday you can resit on Friday.
I am not convinced non DST sites will have that same flexibility with their local DSA test centre and although could offer convenience in locality the process would be stretched over a longer period of time
the difference is that theyâre not being entrusted with a bus-full of other peopleâs kids. Would you rather your children be driven around by someone, who you probably donât know, whoâs had 3-5 days of practice in different conditions, or 3 hours practice which was just enough to scrape a pass?
Block booking could be a way
Week One: RAF Benson
Week Two: RAF Northolt
Week Three: Leuchars Station
⌠And so on.
So thereâs not adhoc training here and there, you have a weeks worth of training/examinations from the centres.
I do understand the logistics of having a DSA centre nearby and on good terms with the site.
How do the ACF run it currently?
This thread is now starting to open up from the initial training survey to a wider question -
Would you be prepared to drive a minibus âfullâ of passengers with only 5 days max of training?
If the answer is no, how would you envisage continuation training to happen to assist in building confidence?
Weekends somewhere in a block through your parent station, if they are willing.
And secondly, how would squadrons move a large number of cadets around if staff donât feel confident enough to drive a minibus (also donât forget a crew-cab is basically a minibus without the seats)?
You wonât get a vehicle out of MT just for continuation training, they would expect it to be used for purpose stated on the request form.
Are we moving away from using MT (could be that this survey is gauging that thought with the CFAVs) and towards hiring, but then again, who will drive the hire vehicle 
, or will we get to a situation where parents are told to transport their own cadets to events , parents then say no and pull cadet from squadron.
just to be clear, thatâs not what I said. I was asking if, as a parent, would you be happy for someone whoâs only had 3 hours practice and scraping a pass driving your little darling around.
Out of interest, why did you put full in quotation marks?
My comment wasnât aimed at you personally, the generalised comments were/are leaning that way, so I posed the question
This is actually something Iâve thought about quite a bit!
I have never really driven larger vehicles as the need has ever come up. I drive a fairly large estate car day-to-day but have little (less than 1 or 2 days) experience of driving anything transit size as I have never had the need. I am however extremely keen to get my D1 at some point as it would open up what I can do with cadets. There is also another member of staff who Iâm good friends with also in a similar situation.
It is certainly an odd one for me, as even though I have lots of AT tickets and am used to risk, none of them have the potential of killing 16 cadets in an accident in one go. I know that sounds extreme but thatâs kind of how I think about it. The closest I guess I ever get to that risk would be taking a group of 8 cadets out paddling, but that is far less risky (imo) then driving a minibus with 16 cadets in.
Maybe Iâm over thinking it, but for all my AT tickets Iâve had to show vast experience in each of the various areas of expertise, and been thoroughly assessed in my abilities in these areas.
I think for me to feel confident in driving larger vehicles Iâd need a fair few days getting used to it. Also would want to keep up the practise from time-to-time if not otherwise driving cadets around.
Again, maybe Iâm over thinking it. I do 15k miles a year in my car so am happy driving around normally. And happily drive the length of the country. Just not normally with other peoples kids on-board.
It is in fact a terrible question.
The concept of scraping a pass is irrelevant, though. The surgeon who scrapes a pass still gets to operate on people, and the pilot who scrapes a pass still gets to fly aircraft filled with hundreds of people. If people arenât competent enough to drive after passing the test then thatâs a problem with the test.
Youâre always going to have people passing things in the minimum time: intensive driving courses, integrated flying training etc.
Perhaps intentionally for our benefit?
their assessments are both 1) much more holistic and 2) require CPD to keep up to date
Indeed, but even with the hardest driving test in the world you can still scrape a pass. The notion of just passing would be irrelevant if the assessment was good enough.
Possibly. That would make a pleasant change.
Though, there will be people who answer ânoâ and in those cases it might be useful to understand their reasons. They might indeed be particularly important for our benefit.
Depending on where you are and what minibus you have many of our staff are already driving using the exemption with zero additional training.
Of the people I know who have been to do their D1 every single one of them had experience of driving a Minibus previously using the exemption.
I had a Cadet pass his test in a Micra and the next day he was driving a long wheel base Sprinter for a living fully laden. 
agreed but they are still on the road - as am i.
i have to trust the system ensures that the Ferrari and/or Land Rover driver using the roundabout at the same time as me knows what they are doing.
It is the same system I trust that puts an âinexperiencedâ D1 driver on the roads.
all in this is probably what i had, 4-5 sessions (~45minutes each) at the wheel over two days - I pass with a handful of minors - now that isnât a scraped pass but it is a pass.
when we CFAVs assign a D1 driver do we consider how well they passed? I know my OC just assigns the drivers based on who has D1 not âI shall assign Steve and and Chris as they only got 8 minors between them while Jon is a liability having got 12 minors and shall never assigns Geoffrey as a driver as he never passed D1 but has it as Grandfather rights!â
I also trust the system i place my kids in, be it the school, the Scouts, the Rugby or other unit they may travel with that their own âsafe system of workâ considers drivers who are suitable for the vehicle.
I do get the argument your voicing but in reality it is inconsequential - the training is provided by our own organisation which offers sufficient training to permit students to pass the required standard nationally recognised.
a pass is a pass.
As a parent who has actually asked?
i am genuinely asking the forum. who here has stopped a youth leader and asked âhey, I see Steve is driving the bus, can i see his licence?â
if this were to happen, unlikely, parent would be shown the pink card with âD1â entitlement on it.
there would no indicating if they took a test (theyâd have to know about Grandfather rights and then when it came in/out) and neither does it indicate how well they passed.
Would said parent then ask for evidence of how well they passed?
I donât think i have kept my pass sheet, and if i have i wouldnât know where to start looking for itâŚbut why would that matter, a pass is a pass.
I would also question how often parent1 questions parent2 on their driving ability. When lifting sharing the kids taxi duties, does parent1 go for a familiarisation drive with parent2 before they let Janet and John ride as passenger with parent2 when they take them off to Squadron every Tuesday? and likewise does Parent2 do the same to ensure Parent1 is safe to bring them back at the end of the night?
on the basis i did scrape by, i completed the course 6 years ago and been driving Minibuses, of various sizes, and shapes in various conditions (day, night, rain, storm, dry, wet, full, empty) ever since so at which point @ccw34 does post test experience count as reassurance that the driver knows what they are doing over the DSAâs own criteria of being safe on the road?
isnât that what the CPC is?
CPC = Certificate of Professional Competence which is a CPD style certificate - âThis must be maintained with 35 hours of periodic training every 5 years or the certificate will lapseâ
Odiham use to do it many years ago
Iâm always surprised at how worried we are about everything⌠first time I drove a transit van I took it across Europe.
Never once driven a van before but had to get a piece of kit from A to B - 3 days driving on the wrong side of the road in foreign countries with nothing but a sat nav⌠could have spent weeks prepping, or you could just go for it.
If an examiner says pass, then go drive the bus.
the more i think about it the more crazy the idea of scraping pass isnât a pass sounds.
should we be applying the same logic to other qualifications?
Person A completes an ML is 2 years, and achieved a âgood passâ
Person b completed an ML after 22 years and scraped a pass but has years of experience, 100s of QMDs and dozens of log book entries.
who is the person a parent would be happiest taken their child up Ben Nevis?