Cadet Timing Out To Become Staff

Adult Staff The Staff Mess
21

[quote=“MattB” post=18448]If you’re 100% sure that you want to go uniform but don’t know whether to go SNCO or commission, then I’d suggest going SNCO at first as you can always commission later, whereas going the other way is rather more complicated!
[/quote]

personally i disagree.

i generalise but there is more than one example of a “bad SNCO” in position because they didnt want to/too soon/werent ready to take commission or simply wanted to start at the bottom to leave the door open.

the rank of Sgt (ATC) is NOT a uniformed adult training rank yet there are too many examples where this seems to be the case…testing the water.

controversial perhaps but i’d rather appoint Staff who WANT to do the role rather than “think they do”

there is nothing wrong with the role of CI and shouldn’t be any pressure to take a uniformed role earlier than you want…so why rush into a position you dont want - i know not relevant to the OP

[/off topic]

22

[quote=“Leeroy” post=18446]You lot are the very reason we are short of adult volunteers.

Why would you discourage a cadet (Who judging by other posts has stuck it out at a rubbish unit) from entering the organisation as an adult?

Yes I agree with the move to another unit, particularly given the OPs other posts, but I would never ever discourage someone from joining as an adult volunteer.
[/quote]

matter of opinion and experience of course, but i’d take the view that the uber-keen chap who goes straight from cadet to staff soon either burns out through lack of perspective, or gets to 25 and thinks ‘christ, where did my twenties go!’, jacks it in and is never seen again.

i accept theres a good chance that the CWO who gets told to go off and play for 3 years will not come back, but if he does, he is - imv - much more likely to stick around for much longer when he does.

investing time, effort and goodwill in 21yo’s who leave at 26 is the bane of this organisation.

23

[quote=“RearAdmiralScrinson” post=18439]My advice? Walk from the ACO.

Go out and find a bit of life experience. Join up, travel, uni…the list goes on. But I find sometimes that its best to go out and broaden your life experience then come back in a few years and offer help.[/quote]

Very sound advice, you may find that your world looks very different in a few years time.

exmpa

24

[quote=“steve679” post=18459]i generalise but there is more than one example of a “bad SNCO” in position because they didnt want to/too soon/werent ready to take commission or simply wanted to start at the bottom to leave the door open.

the rank of Sgt (ATC) is NOT a uniformed adult training rank yet there are too many examples where this seems to be the case…testing the water.

controversial perhaps but i’d rather appoint Staff who WANT to do the role rather than “think they do”

there is nothing wrong with the role of CI and shouldn’t be any pressure to take a uniformed role earlier than you want…so why rush into a position you dont want - i know not relevant to the OP[/quote]
The problem in the ACO is that wrt uniform you either go straight in as SNCO or Officer and you are expected to know it all from day one and then the sniping starts when you mess up in some way or other. It is OK to do this as long as you learn and move on. I made a few faux pas’ in mess’ in the days when the had people in them, but learned and got on with it.

Personally this is where I see CI being developed in terms of knowledge and understanding of the uniformed role, for those looking to go into uniform and the minimum age for adult uniformed service increased.
Or you decide which way you want to jump uniform wise, SNCO or Officer, and then a minimum 3 year training programme which wouuld require attending ATF twice for an initial and passing out course, with a requirement to attend camps and courses NOT specific or biased (as anything to do with weapons seems to be wrt SNCOs) to your uniformed status in between so that you then fall into a “trade” area. You could then settle into and deliver/develop in that “trade” area. For those who want to become sqn cdrs or drill pigs, then you do specific courses once you have passed out and completed say another 2 years service. This would avoid youngsters getting dumped on and leaving.

25

OP, you sound pretty keen to join as staff, don’t let people put you off. Being a staff member is what you make of it, the more you do the more you will get out of it, the more courses you do, the more qualifications you get, the more you can do for cadets. I recommend you moving to another squadron, have a think about which squadron you can get to and the staff at those squadrons. Ask your WWO or other staff members which squadron they would recommend, as they will know which squadron will have the best chance of staff development from the start for you.

You say that you’re keen on drill and discipline, so look at the NCO route rather than the commissioned route, if you want to you can always look towards a commission later after some more experience and life experience. As I said before, don’t let some people put you off, the corps is always after more staff especially uniformed and keen! Being at a decent squadron with supportive staff can change so much in terms of your development. I was never a cadet and joined my first squadron as a CI and became an NCO, it was ok there but I feel that I learnt so much after a change of squadron, it was certainly more challenging at the latter which I learnt a lot!

Good luck!

26

[quote=“angus” post=18461]matter of opinion and experience of course, but i’d take the view that the uber-keen chap who goes straight from cadet to staff soon either burns out through lack of perspective, or gets to 25 and thinks ‘christ, where did my twenties go!’, jacks it in and is never seen again.[/quote]Went (essentially, other than a couple of months as a CI waiting for my region board) straight from Cdt FS to Plt Off.

Nine years later and I’m still here…

27

Similar route to MattB but did WO while waiting for Comm board.

30 years later still here.

28

[quote=“angus” post=18461][quote=“Leeroy” post=18446]You lot are the very reason we are short of adult volunteers.

Why would you discourage a cadet (Who judging by other posts has stuck it out at a rubbish unit) from entering the organisation as an adult?

Yes I agree with the move to another unit, particularly given the OPs other posts, but I would never ever discourage someone from joining as an adult volunteer.
[/quote]

matter of opinion and experience of course, but i’d take the view that the uber-keen chap who goes straight from cadet to staff soon either burns out through lack of perspective, or gets to 25 and thinks ‘christ, where did my twenties go!’, jacks it in and is never seen again.

i accept theres a good chance that the CWO who gets told to go off and play for 3 years will not come back, but if he does, he is - imv - much more likely to stick around for much longer when he does.

investing time, effort and goodwill in 21yo’s who leave at 26 is the bane of this organisation.[/quote]Or to look at it another way:

I’m not going to bother developing you until you’ve hung around for 3 years to prove you’re not going to run away. Then, when we finally do finish your development as an officer, it’ll be right at the point at which life tends to catch up with you and you can’t commit as much…

I think some people also forget that it’s perfectly OK to develop staff for development’s sake.

If I take an ex-cadet at 20, turn them into a well-rounded officer and they still leave at 25, at least I’ve got 5 years of useful staffing at probably not too-great-a-cost in terms of time and effort on my part, and given a young person some extra development and leadership experience. It’s not the best outcome, but I think it still qualifies as at least mildly positive for all involved.

29

[quote=“MattB” post=18481]Went (essentially, other than a couple of months as a CI waiting for my region board) straight from Cdt FS to Plt Off.

Nine years later and I’m still here…[/quote]
But there are more who aren’t. You may have been lucky in the Corps and been able to get on without too much interference and had a pretty stable real life. But for many the pressures are immense and from day one Corps and real life and they don’t find it so easy and IMO the latter is going to be the way into the future. Potentially we will have less people go or get (due to process/procedures) into uniform and the pressures on those that do to take roles are many fold in comparison to years gone by and unless they have a CO and personal quality to resist the pressures, they will find themselves leaving.

I think that there needs to be something done to make a uniformed role in the Corps an attractive proposition into the future. As currently I don’t think it is.

30

i am very much in a similar position to MattB…i went "straight from Cadet to the Staff except it took me 9 month to go through the process…

in my experience, i know of three Cadets appointed to CI who later disappeared…i dont know any staff member who like Matt and i have gone from cadet to uniformed staff and since jacked it in…only seems to be CI.

their young age and preserved “low rank” put them at the bottom of the pile and they dont seem to be engaged or enthused.
our Wing, and i suspect the Corps is particularly poor at succession planning and the loss of young CIs/potential uniformed Staff is a problem just as relevant and those “burning out”

31

There’s been a lot of chatter on here about how we are perceived by the “big boys of the RAF”, which would to me at any rate would mean that cadets going to adult SNCO is a no no, how many Sgts are there between the ages of 20 and 25 excluding airecrew? This effectively only leaves Officer. Now given the penchant in the ACO for putting inexperienced (regardless of boyish/girly enthusiasm) Officers into Sqn commands doesn’t do many much good. I’ve seen a few chewed up and spat out as they couldn’t cope with the general demands and treatment by some staff / CWC and combinations therein and unless you have a WSO fighting their corner for them, not ideal, they were never going to cope. Then given the rules, once an Officer, the 3 routes out of a command are CI, NEP or good-bye and then come back as a CI with being chased to be an Officer again, the options for youngsters ageing out are pretty limited.

On top of this there seems to be a view developing, due to a real or percieved mindset within the CTT, that RCO and SAAI are the sole preserve of SNCOs (thus excluding over two-thirds of the potential instuctor base) as it’s how it is in the regulars. FMS seems to be open to all comers, but how many FMS instructors do we need on a sqn? The CTT advertised for instructors recently and IRRC it was SNCOs only. I know of 3 Officers and 4 CIs who could instruct as well as any SNCO. So at 19ish you may not be enamoured with the potential for sqn command (if taking a Commission has been properly explained) and SNCO may be frowned upon, the options to pursue/develop an interest as a young CI may then be limited. I will say again we need to make the role of CI a fuller one with no activity barred by rule, design or prejudice. I’ve got 3 young CIs none of whom want to go into uniform as yet, however two want to do RCO and one of these wants to do SAAI as well. They go along to other squadrons to shadow WI/WHT and ranges (all done by officers) and are up for all the pre-course reading etc, but am I wasting my time getting them on a course, if (1) they aren’t allowed or (2) they go and due to narrow-minded attitudes are binned as they aren’t SNCOs. Neither of which encorages them to stay. None of these have any particular interest in AT, so that’s out and I have 3 FMS instructors who are all doing things.

32

As a CI who is SAAI & SA(07)SR, and looking to complete my LR, if they have the experience of the weapon system, then they should crack on. CTT will train all, and shouldn’t discriminate based on someone’s role. The RCO course is run by SATT & SASC, with no CTT involvement anyway. The vast majority of my local SATT are all officers anyhow…

33

the advert for instructors by CTT was for instructors on their team i suspect and there for only SNCO.

the team has three officers as part of it but they do not instruct weapons, only the MOI/classroom pieces, as that is what Officers do…stand at a lecture and talk.

it is a fall out of Frimley Park. we have to play by their rules to continue to offer what we always have done.

the only restriction on rank i know of is CTT weapons instructor (ie SAAI) and DI both are SNCO…the rest of the courses available are open to all, some of which include Cadets!

34

So why do we have to play to Frimley Park’s rules if they are stupid and support a restrictive practice? It’s all well and good perhaps in the regulars to have weapons stuff done by SNCOs with Officers doing none weapons things, but we are, unless I missed the memo, not the regulars.

35

Certainly in SCOTSAT this is not the case over 50% of staff are Officers. I’ve not been on a course recently, but know most of the team members.

36

i guess because we follow the RAF rules for everything RAF?

agreed but we play by their rules because we get to play with their toys…

i dont disagree, with you just highlighting the reasoning CTT told me.

and FYI and everyone else’s benefit a VRT and CI CAN attend and pass a SAAI© course, they are just not permitted to apply for a permanent role on the CTT team.

37

What is this rule of which you speak?

38

[quote=“talon” post=18590][quote=“steve679” post=18535]
it is a fall out of Frimley Park. we have to play by their rules to continue to offer what we always have done.
[/quote]

What is this rule of which you speak?[/quote]

rules = their regs…Frimley park look after all MOD shooting as i understand it so to play thier game (Shooting) we follow thier rules (regs, PAMs, quals etc)

39

[quote=“steve679” post=18599][quote=“talon” post=18590][quote=“steve679” post=18535]
it is a fall out of Frimley Park. we have to play by their rules to continue to offer what we always have done.
[/quote]

What is this rule of which you speak?[/quote]

rules = their regs…Frimley park look after all MOD shooting as i understand it so to play thier game (Shooting) we follow thier rules (regs, PAMs, quals etc)[/quote]

No they don’t. The SASC deal with such things. Frimley Park have an amount of influence over cadet shooting but does not actually control it. Frimley cannot change the official pamphlets without consulting the SASC.

Which rule in particular are you unhappy with?

40

ok then…replace my use of “Frimley Park” with SASC does that work?

my point being those who’s “train set” shooting is, set the “rules” so we have to play by them

much like the same people who’s “train set” is drill set the “rules” determine that DIs can only be SNCOs

the “rule” i refer to is in a casual sense, referring to the policy, regulations, procedures etc.

personally i dont have a problem with the “rule” and i say again…any CFAV can be a SAAI
however to be a CTT instructor they will only consider applications from SNCOs