With a trial to place 40 slots this year with BGA gliding clubs in the offing is it not a better use of money to get the current system (of the largest gliding organisation in the world) up to the level where they can provide these 40 places? Discuss?
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To my mind one of the limitations with our VGS system is distance that many sqns have to travel to get to the venue (it takes us 1 1/2 hours but I know that many sqns have to travel much further).
By comparison there are BGA clubs in all sorts of weird and wonderful locations that might be more accessible to sqns (for example there is a club 20 mins from us).
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Good point for some of the remote locations, the trial appears to be taking place in the south west at one site mid way between two VGS sites which themsleves are only an hour apart.
I cannot comment on the specifics of the BGA\ACO trial but as a general principle anything that facilitates contact with the wider world outside the ACO should be a good thing. It will allow cadets to see what possibilities there are to continue in gliding beyond the ACO. This would be in stark contrast to what has occurred in cadet shooting where layer upon layer of regulation has made it increasingly difficult for cadets to experience the sport outside the narrow confines of the army controlled system.
There may be reservations about the quality of training that cadets will receive at BGA clubs. Having had considerable experience within the military flying training system and a similar amount in the civilian world I might expect some difference in process but none in output standard.
exmpa
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Not sure what you’re driving at. BGA gliding (sport flying) is a very different beast to the ACO, which, post first-solo, is focused on providing training to get people to either move up to the next level of flying (preferably service flying), or to become instructors themselves and thus helping to sustain the system. What little sport flying the ACO did has largely been forsaken (primarily the annual dets to Portmoak) in order to increase the capacity of the training system.
If you’re talking about contracting out gliding to civilian clubs, then you’re going to have all kinds of problems with standardisation of pilots, instructors, method and equipment and, in the short and intermediate term, you’re going to have problems with capacity. The ACO already runs about 600 GS courses a year, plus thousands of GIC hours/launches. Then you might also have all kinds of legal problems regarding compensation and paying clubs for a commercial service when just about all of their instructors do not hold commercial licenses.
Of course, what we’re also going to lose out on is the experience of RAF-style flying training and if we’re not concerned about that, then we might as well get rid of any other military-style training altogether. We can even scrap RAF-style uniforms for the cadets too. There are already more cadets in the country than airmen anyway.
exempa
"It will allow cadets to see what possibilities there are to continue in gliding beyond the ACO."
This is a good point. The possibilities for cadets to progress in their gliding within the Corps is very limited beyond GS. Perhaps fostering relations between the Corps and the BGA is the way to overcome this.
I think that stevenhawkingstennisracqet raises some important points with regards to standardisation which would all need to be covered if any such scheme where to work, but I don’t believe any of the potential problems are insurmountable.
“Then you might also have all kinds of legal problems regarding compensation and paying clubs for a commercial service when just about all of their instructors do not hold commercial licenses.”
I don’t think that there will be any issue here as every club offers trial flights to paying passengers and many clubs (my old club included) offer corporate packages. Some clubs even offer “zero to hero” type programs where you pay a fixed price to get you to first solo without any obligation to be a member of the club. At most clubs all of the above would be delivered by unpaid instructors.
The ACO has tried to foster relationships in the past with the BGA through the young gliding program that was run a few years ago with very limited success this appears to be more filling bums on seats and offering GIC/GS style flying rather than the further sport and x-country flying where the BGA excel.
The VGS system with a little investment could easily provide these extra courses
[quote=“tingger” post=11200]The VGS system with a little investment could easily provide these extra courses[/quote]I’d just be happy if it managed to provide GIC/GS up here.
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Probably the place it would be of any use is filling the gap in the north west. :ohmy:
And a few airfields that aren’t being turned over to industrial and estates… 
Well there was that time that a staff cadet on a GIC from 644 Henlow got lost in a vigilant & had to land at Cambridge Airport.
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Several of our cadets have taken up gliding locally, gone solo & are working towards bigger & better gliding achievements. It really hacks me off that we cannot support them(& others) because Big Brother says so.
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I guess that I’m lucky to have 2 gliding clubs within 15 miles of my home, both with youth sections. My previous Sqn is located on the same former RAF Station as one of these gliding clubs, which offers their own ‘gliding scholarships’ to youths from the towns secondary school. More cadets have been gliding via that route than via the cadet set up…
Two years ago we had 8 cadets on squadron with their blue wings from 1 flight in a Tutor, and embarrassingly, 4 cadets with ‘C’ wings from flying solo at a civvy gliding club. All 4 had in excess of 90 launches!
That’s 8 flights courtesy of RAFAC, and 360 flights from going elsewhere!
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its a sad indictment of the system that we volunteer in.
90 launches each to go solo …thats the other issue with the BGA system!
…generally they will get less flying per day than a GS Student …so take longer to Solo, not sure what the average length of time is these days for a VGS Solo, but back in my day (Vikings) was probably 30 - 40 ish during a week course and probably 40 - 60 for a weekend student.
Do BGA clubs have accommodation - along with suitable adult supervision etc and messing …I doubt it (but then again, my VGS was very lucky in that department)…
…you are very rarely comparing oranges for oranges when debating VGS vs BGA!
[quote=“jellybean, post:17, topic:773”]
Do BGA clubs have accommodation
[/quote]Do BGA clubs have accommodation?
Some do, such as Cambridge Gliding Centre including a members’ kitchen.
However, there are many more BGA locations compared to VGS sites - & if a comparable scheme to ACTO35 could be progressed, then certainly as far as our sqn would be concerned, transport would be coordinated.
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@Cab Sir, do you have any views on why RAFAC gliding is 8 times as expensive as the gliding that ACF, SCC, Air Scouts and Scouts do?
So your view is that we should disband the VGSs? You don’t see any benefits of having a Service-led approach to Cadet gliding? Feels like focusing on finances is only a part of any reasoned argument. (This is not AOC agreement to the financial data BTW).
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