The same can be said about most civilian employers, deep down has the fact that people don’t wear suits/ties everyday caused a drop in productivity?

It’s the type of thinking that has led the Met Police to spend a fortune developing a wicking shirt that officers have to wear a tie with rather than wearing the national Police uniform.


Well if you’re going down that route, you might as well question why I still have to do stuff like marching, raise the ensign and polish my shoes when my time could be better spent keeping aircraft in the air but the reason we do a lot of seemingly pointless stuff in a military organisation is because it instils discipline. Better still, why even wear a uniform at all?


Clearly a strawman; wearing trousers to work in no way affects one’s choice of attire when not in uniform.

That would largely appear to be an argument for allowing beards.


Theses are of course the rules that apply to personnel of certain religions anyway. If it is acceptable for them, then I can’t see how anyone can argue that it’s not acceptable for anyone else.


i am not sure i understand the point…

are you saying people are let off wearing ties but as soon as someone has a deadline looming they change their attire to a more professional state which thus improves their chances of meeting the deadline?


He’s saying that in the past, people were expected to wear shirt and tie to things and the fear was if they dressed casually they would be less productive.

As time has gone on and people have got more lax, that has been shown to not be the case. What you wear to work rarely affects performance.



well that isn’t what i was saying at all.

I was expanding on incubus’s comment - beards ok until needed for battle (respirator)

long hair overlooked until needed on parade - something which i am sure is done on a daily basis the the Forces and certainly in the RAFAC/Cadet Forces - i was applying an everyday example to the suggest to adopt


having spent the best part of an accumulated two and a half years in battle while wearing a beard of differing shades of Autumn, i think i can say that the fact that my soldiers had beards had absolutely no impact on their willingness to carry out their basic personal, weapons or battle admin on a mountainside or in a ditch after a 400 hour shift.

the argument that not shaving produces a less disciplined and less effective soldier has been demonstrated to be utter pump - it has no more truth to it than Donald Trumps’ CV.

the argument that CFAV’s, who are not members of the military and who will never be issued a resperator, must be cleanly shaven for the 3 hours out of nearly 200 hours in a week that they are on duty in case the ATC comes under chemical attack and they need to achieve a clean seal with a resperator they won’t have, seems to me to be one of the less sensible ideas in human history.


No it’s not.

It’s fashion. Beards have been around for arguably thousands of years. It’s only the recent spate of millennial wannabes who are kicking off about it.

Not think lads wanted beards in the 80s/90s? Probably but you just get on with it.

And no it’s not. You used Salisbury as an example. That’s rapid response. Limited time and resources.
We have already flogged it to death. It’s dependent on threat, situation and environment.

If you want a hipster beard, join the navy. Otherwise we will end up looking like some of the police with naff styles of crap facial hair that looks ridiculous, unprofessional and just turd.

You want to be in the boys club? Play by the rules. Don’t kick off because of whatever latest fashion takes your fancy.


It’s only acceptable for them because the MOD has no spine and knows full well it will become target of some Mickey Mouse court action where some poor “oppressed” person will kick off.

Did you not see the whole can cream thing on Twitter? It’s a farce.


I disagree, nothing but cam cream and flip flops is not a combat effective uniform.

It only works well if the individuals in question are highly motivated and self disciplined, take SF for example, lax rules and treated like an adult because they have proved themselves.

90% of the squaddies I saw at leconfield spent their evening in their beds, eating watsits and watching films on their laptop uniform thrown over the chair and then the morning spent shaving in uniform. None of those honking creatures did any physical training or anything proactive or productive.

Big boys rules for adults


Your last paragraph is bang on.

I don’t know why some Cadet staff that haven’t served a day in their life feel like they are qualified to comment on it…


You’re arguing against yourself there. Angus’ last paragraph is in favour of people living by their own choices, not being imposed upon by an organisation that they give a small part of their week to.


That’s what I have constantly said.

Cadets: do what you like. Grow a beard. You don’t need a seal.

Forces: play by the rules. Suck it up and Crack on.


Well then where’s the fuss. We’re mostly all in agreement, let’s make it happen.


Don’t forget stakes mallets garlic and a suitable religious symbol and some water.


Gas tight suits, BA is worn underneath just in case suit integrity is compremised


None of us are arguing for beards in the real RAF, so yes, you’ve been arguing against us while agreeing with us.


Depends on the suit, PRPS is a canister so no BA underneath and no respirator either. It’s basically accepted these days that if your suit rips you are in brown stuff so why pretend?

The vast majority of first responders now wear kit that does not require a seal or if they still use quick don (civil responder is dead) have time to shave before deployment.

The military deployment to Salisbury was so far after the initial incident they would have needed a shave again if they had one on the day of the incident!


No. It depends entirely on the suit.

Some contain their own sets. Others do not and require the user to wear BA within it.