In these times of multi faiths across the country and within the ACO, should we as an organisation move away from the norm, Church Parade, and move to a more secular event to celebrate the formation of the ACO; being more inclusive. Or would a move to this actually reduce number on parade as it is not what we have always done…
So what do you think?!?!
A different parade by the same thought. Our RAFA branch closed due to falling numbers. We inherited the ownership and planning of the Battle of Britain Parade.
It had always been a Church service then Parade to the town’s war memorial with a short commemoration
We changed it to a parade to the War memorial with an extended service.
We still get Civic support and Regular RAF from BAE ( our only RAF presence in the area).
Our numbers on parade have increased since we stopped the church parade.
I’ve never been to one: we don’t seem to go for that sort of thing up here. However, I’d not attend one if it involved a church and I would not find my self able to “encourage” anybody else to attend it either.
Churches seem like a handy venue for this sort of thing but the use of a church comes with a man (or woman) in a frock who will expect to say something religious. There are plenty of other venues which could be used, though most I suspect will come with a bill.
Writing this now I find myself wondering what the point of ATC Sunday is anyway. The 5th Feb isn’t always a Sunday so ATC Sunday is a fabrication based on the desire of the religious to paint the ATC in their image. I’d bin it in favour of an expansion of activities around the summer when wing field days or wing parades are typically held. Certainly, the one time Aberdeen wing tried to do an ATC Sunday parade since I’ve been with the ATC, it was cancelled due to heavy snow: February is a crap time to do parades in Aberdeen.
It is on record of course that I’d not stop there either: I am all for the secularisation of the ACO and, in fact, the entire country. I’d abolish padres as a formal post on units (and definitely as an expectation), though they can keep their moral leadership courses as I hear they are quite fun. I’d do a proper job of rewriting the cadet promise, secularise the enrolment ceremony which the OC (or a nominated proxy) would run and so on.
I’m all for Church parades if they wind up the Dawkins fan club.
And I’m all for banning them if it winds up the fundamentalists.
I’m so conflicted… would it be easier if we just banned the ATC and/or Sundays?
I’d never heard of ‘ATC Sunday’ before coming across mentions of it on ACC…
Thankfully it’s not a tradition in these parts (excepting major anniversaries every ten years).
[quote=“tango_lima” post=21500]I’m all for Church parades if they wind up the Dawkins fan club.
And I’m all for banning them if it winds up the fundamentalists.
I’m so conflicted… would it be easier if we just banned the ATC and/or Sundays?[/quote]
Arn’t Dawkinists fundamentalists anyway? I’ve never know such a group of people who are so passionate about their beliefs 
Back to topic - In general ATC Sunday comes down to the padre and how they approach matters. Is their anything to stop you having a humanist padre for example.
These sort of services are there for to remind ourselves a bit of our own humanity, to pause, and do that bit of philosophical thinking that is required in any organisation whose mission requires them to go to war & to take life.
I have seen a very religious padre who tailored his Sunday address to the different audience and made it more about asking questions etc and it was an exceptional service and really got home to a lot of the cadets mot of whom were not religious.
I have also experienced another padre who at a battle of britain service made it feel like his standard sunday service with a battle of britain theme tagged on. It was quite, quite dreadful and made most people uncomfortable & bored.
Secularising something for the sake of it will not make it more inclusive as you actively exclude those who hold those beliefs (and if you come across as dismissive of peoples religious beliefs then you are going to be perceived as dismissive of their thoughts & beliefs on more minor matters).
In short you are in a no-win scenario as you will offend people regardless. If your Padre is a very good philosopher/theologian then they might be able to keep a general theme of “God” without some of the other baggage semi-satisfying everyone. Also depending on your Sqn & community mix there maybe other faiths that may be able to join in. I know of at least on Hindu Padre who’s very down to earth and good at his services and couple of Rabbi’s I’ve met have had a fearsome intellect with fascinating insights into philosophy.
Incubus raises a very valid question of “what the point of ATC Sunday is anyway”. Regardless of where you stand on the religious debate the answer should never be “because thats was when the ATC was formed”. If your event has not got a defined purpose it will not be a success as you will be just ticking boxes.
However if you want an opportunity for the cadets to take an opportunity to come together and think in a non-confrontational way about what it actually means to be in the ATC and what the significance is to the community that you exist and the purpose of the RAF as a whole then a ‘service’ of some description would be a good way of achieve that.
So perhaps the question of ATC Sunday should not be whether or not it should be secular but whether we should have it at all!
<Note - I have tried to keep the above balanced, accepting and non-confrontational. The question is about the style of the ATC sunday parade and not about religion in general. However if have offended anyone then I apologise. Let’s try and keep the debate constructive rather than hostile or metaphysical and opening cans of worms !
i must admit that it does seem rather odd to ‘celebrate’ the ATC by doing the most boring, least enjoyable activity in the worst possible weather than can be arranged…
THANK YOU!!!
our Sqn seem insisted on doing the least practical event for the time of year.
we tried a parade but that was rained off
then tried several Fieldcraft weekends…only one wet ahead as a camping weekend because of the weather (snow, rain, both!)
i would much rather take the Cadets to Duxford for the day and make it an annual trip…i could guarantee a full minibus each year that is for sure!
Cheers for the feedback guys. We’ve always done ATC Sunday Parade, since I was a cadet and now as a CI. Its our padre who wants to change the format so we’ll see what happens.
Interesting to see that not everyone parades though, though it was one of the three compulsory parades along with BoB and Remembrance; how wrong could I be.
LOL! We don’t to Battle of Britain either.
ATC Sunday and remembrance - we don’t do BOB either
We’re going to try a formation dinner event this February, rather than our traditional Christmas dining in.
we had a party with a massive take-away, pub-singer Kareoke and alternative awards.
oddly enough, my OC saw little point giving up a precious Sunday to stand in the rain in February listening to some god-botherer (who, of course, we’d only see once a year…) waffle about his Sky Fairy in order to ‘celebrate’ someone with a moustache signing a bit of paper.
we also had a summer weekend were we tried to get people from the Sqn doing as many ATC activities as possible - then we had a BBQ for the Sqn, parents, ex-cadets etc…
That sounds a better way to celebrate the organisation. I have never understood why we parade in the part of the year with the very worst and coldest weather.
I personally can’t see the problem with a church service parade for ATC Sunday, given it’s normally cold and or wet. Easy and quick to do, 45-60 minutes job done and home for lunch. If it goes on much more than 45 minutes you’ve not briefed them properly. Even the event this Sunday is done and dusted in that timeframe this fits for most commemoration parades.
Doing other things in secular format has the potential to drag it out longer than it needs to be, more messing around organising it and IMO you tend to lose focus / purpose. A parade / service focusses the mind on why you’re there and given most teenagers have the attention span of goldfish unless it involves pixels, it can’t be a bad thing.
The dinners I’ve been to where the speeches go on and on and on and by the end you’ve lost the will to live.
But why are you there?
45minutes for a parade!!! I wish!!!
the parade this sunday, meet cadets about 0915, home for about 1300
that’s if I don’t go back to the TA centre,
Whislt I agree the ATC sunday parade is a lot of rubbish, I hate the Battle of Britain more :mad: :mad:
This hatred I think is due to the RAFA branch who want the cadets there to collect for them,
fill the church then don’t want to know them any other time unless they need something.
yeah I know the work RAFA, do history etc, but DO NOT treat the cadets like something you scrape off
your shoe. a bit of politeness goes a long way
But why are you there?[/quote]
Surely why you’re there be it in church, on a parade or bowling alley is obvious. The shorter the event - bish, bash, bosh and home, plus having it in church apart from mentioning it to the padre/vicar and getting their agreement, you have nothing more to do, other than turn up, OK a PIPE but that’s it. Organising other things to achieve the same aim, is just aggro that I can do without. I’ve been to a couple of Armed Forces Days and after 2-3 hours once the march past has happened, it all gets a bit can we go yet.
[quote=“big g” post=21812]45minutes for a parade!!! I wish!!!
the parade this sunday, meet cadets about 0915, home for about 1300
that’s if I don’t go back to the TA centre, [/quote]
WTF are you doing until 1300? The key part is between 1058 & 1102, depending how the Act is worked. We meet c.0930 just to make sure the cadets have had something to eat (cakes of some sort) and a drink. The parade marches off at 1015 done and dusted by 11:35, if we march back to the start and home not long after. The bit around the War Memorial lasts 40 minutes.
[quote=“big g” post=21812]Whislt I agree the ATC sunday parade is a lot of rubbish, I hate the Battle of Britain more :mad: :mad:
This hatred I think is due to the RAFA branch who want the cadets there to collect for them,
fill the church then don’t want to know them any other time unless they need something.
yeah I know the work RAFA, do history etc, but DO NOT treat the cadets like something you scrape off your shoe. a bit of politeness goes a long way[/quote]
Talk to them. Do they have a club or is it just a branch? Our RAFA used to be a bit offish, as you describe, but now the cadets are treated really well. They pay for pizza nights each year and allow us to use the club for socials. All it took was speaking to them and asking.
[quote=“big g” post=21812]45minutes for a parade!!! I wish!!!
the parade this sunday, meet cadets about 0915, home for about 1300
that’s if I don’t go back to the TA centre, [/quote]
WTF are you doing until 1300? The key part is between 1058 & 1102, depending how the Act is worked. We meet c.0930 just to make sure the cadets have had something to eat (cakes of some sort) and a drink. The parade marches off at 1015 done and dusted by 11:35, if we march back to the start and home not long after. The bit around the War Memorial lasts 40 minutes.
to answer…
Cadets meet at sqns for inspection then transported to the parade assembly along with all the other service’s just outside the city centre, the parade starts marching off 950 for a 25minute march to the memorial. then arrange in the square, await the “civilian” element of the parade to form up as they don’t march nor do they tell the time. then the dignitaries. the full parade will be ready for the march on of the veterans for 1040.
as you say the service is over by 1145-ish then the march off… :whistle: got to wait for the Veterans (no issue they deserve/ earned the right to be there) but then the BB, scouts, the police and Fire service to march past (who need to be announced and march individually!!) then the latest craze the veterans on their motorbikes to do a drive past?? by this time we are now about 1200 then we start the main parade march off back to the assembly point slightly longer route. once back the cadets are to return back to the Sqn for dispersal not the city centre.
I think you have got confuesd, this topic was talking about ATC Sunday (and then BoB parade) NOT
Remembrance Parade…
BTW we do ATC Sunday … March - Church - Tea and stickies in our part of the world but no BoB parade
Remembrance we cover poppy ceromonies at 2 cemetries with war graves locally and 2 parades one in the moring and one in the afternoon…