ATC cadets using L98 conversion kits

Hi all,

Finally managed to speak to our local CCF yesterday after years of trying, and they’re being exceptionally helpful and welcoming of joint working.

We have a range, but no qualified staff at the moment. They have rifles and qualified staff but no range, so the obvious answer is combine and conquer.

However, as a CCF they have the .22 conversion kit for the L98A2 rather than any .22 rifles (which we have). Their cadets can train on and use it, so my question is can my ATC cadets do that? They’ll train and test our cadets, we’ll provide the range and potential training venue.

Are there any issues with that (I’m sure there are going to be some…)

I’ve asked several times about using ACF to train and test our cadets given the qualifications are the same now and it seems to get lost in a mist of admin.
You’d like to think as we’re all part of the same club essentially we could just play together.
I’ve got copies of their tickets but that’s not enough.
I just got a very real sense that it was ATC types being ATC types for no reason than being ATC types and fearing losing control of their little bit of the world. The ACF are more than happy to just do it.
As it’s CCF it might be that problematic.

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AFAIK, and this is worth checking via the Shooting Portal - Ask a Question

Using the conversion kit makes no difference to the standard L98A2 requirements laid down in ACTO 43 Para 47 refers to the kit, but doesn’t indicate if Para 35 still applies.

Please ask both questions via the Shootings Portal link above and you’ll get an answer fairly swiftly.

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has it been done? pass

the RAFAC doesn’t use the conversion kit so we’ve never needed to cross this bridge, but can it be done? I’d be disappointed if it can’t

That is interesting. I have done it the other way round to utilise ATC facilitles and our TSA was more than happy with the ATC staff and their quals.

Re the SCA, cadets don’t need to train on it, they just need to be in date on the A2. Only CFAVs are to fit the SCA.

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But you’re coming from the other side.
The ACF are more than happy to do it, but it seems the ATC job protection mob, that seem to be the problem. Given that the ATC struggles to get enough people qualified for shooting across the board, if we all start going to the ACF to get it done, would we need the ATC shooting set up and officers FTRS and CFAV poncing around. No.

The ATC seems to suffering from people protecting / justifying jobs in many areas and it is stymying progress / development.

The ATC doesn’t use the SCA. The rest of the RAFAC do…

I’ve used them recently, in preparation for a DCCT competition shoot on RAST. The RAF used to regard this as a separate category on the F7257 (‘L41A1 SCA’) but my understanding is that they have now dropped the requirement for separate categories on the F7257 and you are allowed to exercise your quals on any weapon for which you have a valid, in date WHT, which is the SASC rule anyway.

The L41A2 SCA isn’t a weapon system - it forms part of the L98A2 system. As such it doesn’t require staff or cadets to have a separate WHT. The only minor issue which you can deal with in the range briefing is that the working parts don’t lock open after the final round. I usually deal with this by requiring cadets to fire off one extra round after counting their issued rounds - they should get a click on an empty chamber - then manually put working parts to the rear. That’s up to you - no requirement.

BUT - and this is the biggie - you can only shoot if your own chain of command will sign it off. They MAY have a problem with you doing things outside your own ATC system - if so, I’d be inclined to ask them to justify this, as most (all?) CCFs are far more current on the weapons than the ATC, as we keep them on units and use them regularly. But you can’t get around the system…

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quite right, well corrected - a slip of the finger on my part

Ive known of ATC units using the conversion kit, I believe it was organised by the HQ TDT guys.

Cough still waiting cough :slight_smile:

he meant “fairly swiftly” as compared to the CFC debacle!

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I’ve been using the conversion kits in RAFAC recently but the ATC don’t own any with the choice to procure L103 rifles being chosen ahead of that.

Yes Cadets can fire with them but nothing changes from the L98 criteria.

It also doesn’t make it a small bore weapon for storage purposes.

Whoever is fitting them needs to have been trained by a current and competent SAAI and so does the RCO. Cadets should be taught the differences.

But do talk to your local CCF if you’re interested. Most will have at least a couple.

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So how do CCF cadets train, if it still counts as a full bore rifle? Do they need to be progressive and fire a smallbore rifle first like the ATC?

i think what @bob1 was getting at was for storage reasons it is not considered small bore…so cannot be stored at a Units Armoury.

seems silly to have a 0.22" rifle available to the Cadets which cannot be fired until a 0.22" rifle has been fired!

wait…as i read that again…the same is true for every Martini and Anschutz :thinking:

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But I’ve just read ACTO43 and it states that cadets must have done L98 training and hold a WHT before they use the L41A2, which means they must be 14, mentally mature and have completed either air rifle or small bore service rifle marksmanship test to trained shot standard or a legacy sqn marksman.

And storage isn’t an issue. The CCF unit is storing them and doing all the training and RCOing. I now know we can use them, but now I want to know if the CCF (RAF) cadets have to jump through the same hoops the ATC cadets do before they use it.

They only need to be 14 to fire the L98A2 (and L81A2) - they can be qualified younger :wink:

That said, I still think a simple, bolt-action .22 rifle is a better introduction to shooting that the L98/SCA abomination.

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