I see no future in No8 rifle drill, the WS is getting tired and is only fit for firing (at the best of times) There is no manual on No8 weapon drill and no plans to do so.
With all due respect Steve were in 2013 not 1950’s!
Thanks ‘arl’ for your comments. Much appreciated 
Has anyone else done the course who can answer the questions?
Good discussion going on with policy though.
A number of points being raised and I’ll try and cover them off as best I can.
303’s, No8’s - Never come across anyone using No8’s for drill however a discussion did take place regarding 303’s on the course. Most units have given them up however I know some did retain them, we used to have 12 on sqn when I was a cadet. However the key thing here is the drill for the 303 went out with the introduction of the SLR in the 60’s which in turn went out post 1990 with the introduction of drill for the L85. We are not a historical re-enactment group we are Royal Air Force Air Cadets and we have the mechanism to undertake Arms drill in line with out parent service.
L103’s The directive regarding only using L98’s was aimed at parades, principally because of the fact that L103’s are clearly drill purpose. We have the facility to have L98’s parade prepped and therefore we should use them as such. It would be easier to access a larger number of prepped L98’s than it would be to pull together all the L103’s in the wing to undertake a parade. I can and do use L103’s for practice but as I said before there are only 4 between 6 squadrons so it doesn’t make it any more practical at a sqn level.
The SSC ceremonial weapons (I can’t remember the designation) were not purchased by the ATC, it may be that had the decision to do arms drill been made earlier we might have. Whether the ATC is able to/prepared to buy these is obviously beyond me but the same issues would exist in terms of numbers. I cannot see that they would be purchased at anything other than the levels for the L103.
WHT’s whilst this is one of the biggest sticking points I have at the moment having discussed with both the wing shooting staff and SATT I understand the reasons. I am not a weapons instructor and therefore not in a position to introduce people to the rifle. One option here as I mentioned is to use a mixed approach, have those with WHT’s with weapons and those without using replica’s/cutouts. Again on the course we looked at a rubber training rifle which are available to buy, however cost just of £200 a pop!
As regards prospect of increasing the number of instructors, there are two courses this year in addition to the two last year. So this year the number of instructors will double. By the end of 2014 there should all being equal be at least 3 Arms DI’s in each wing, I know some got 2 through last year due to wing mergers (ie. in the end there were less wings than places). Once there is a number of intructors putting together training becomes easier. You have to think about it along with same lines as L98 live firing, its available but the cadets have to travel to a wing shoot where its available, drill will be the same.
that i cant deny
i just indicating it would be easier for most to pick up a handful of No8s and rest them on a shoulder than with a L98 (particulalry in terms of time to get 12 cadets with WHTs)
i used to be a on Sqn that do regular 0.303 drill (and parades) and know the staff present would happily continue to do so.
although i agree that times have changed, Sqn stores havent caught up (and not likely to due to the style of weapon) and i can see what was once a regular sight, Cadet on Remembrance Parade as Sentires with rifles, will cease much to the disappointment of the Squadron, local residents and Cadets
I don’t think the age of the rifle matters. The US Marine drill rifles are by no means modern. And the .303 is still used by the SCC, the Canadian Air Cadets and even the Malta Police. (youtube their drill team for some heart in your mouth action.)
What matters is that the drill is done smartly and appropriately. I don’t think it matters with what weapon. Fact of the matter is in my wing we have a fair few No4s, and no ‘modern’ alternative.
Also I really don’t get the WHT requirement. You don’t need one to train on a rifle to shoot it. The instructor is deemed to be supervising everyone. And seeing as most of our Drill rifles are not capable of firing they’re not really weapons.
Who would know if your drill team were all current and competent on the L98A2?
Is the Arms Drill Police going to turn up and demand each cadet strips and reassembles their weapons prior to a parade?
Of course the cadets should be WHT’d. It’s a weapon! Whilst I agree that knowing the marksmanship principles or aiming off for wind isn’t exactly important for arms drill.
The WHT checks you know how to handle the weapons safely. We teach you do NSPs when handing the weapon to another or the beginning of every range practice or period etc. You can’t throw safe handling rules out of the window because you can’t be arsed. You should be trained and competency checked with a WHT.
[quote=“the fixer” post=3584]
The WHT checks you know how to handle the weapons safely. We teach you do NSPs when handing the weapon to another or the beginning of every range practice or period etc. You can’t throw safe handling rules out of the window because you can’t be arsed. You should be trained and competency checked with a WHT.[/quote]
There is no safe handling rule that says you need a WHT to handle a weapon, only to fire it. If such a rule did exist, skill at arms lessons would be very difficult to carry out!
[quote=“the fixer” post=3584]Of course the cadets should be WHT’d. It’s a weapon! Whilst I agree that knowing the marksmanship principles or aiming off for wind isn’t exactly important for arms drill.
The WHT checks you know how to handle the weapons safely. We teach you do NSPs when handing the weapon to another or the beginning of every range practice or period etc. You can’t throw safe handling rules out of the window because you can’t be arsed. You should be trained and competency checked with a WHT.[/quote]
We can’t use L98A2s for Drill because they’re weapons. L103s and No4 DP rifles cannot fire, cannot chamber rounds and therefore are not really weapons. So no need for a WHT. The entire point of Drill Purpose weapons is that you don’t need a WHT to handle one. The Drill doesn’t refer to carrying them, but weapons drills. If Drill Purpose weapons were purely for ceremonial purposes I wouldn’t have a DP Bren LMG.
OFF TOPIC, but: 
with envy. Want one. 
[quote=“the fixer” post=3584]Of course the cadets should be WHT’d. It’s a weapon! Whilst I agree that knowing the marksmanship principles or aiming off for wind isn’t exactly important for arms drill.
The WHT checks you know how to handle the weapons safely. We teach you do NSPs when handing the weapon to another or the beginning of every range practice or period etc. You can’t throw safe handling rules out of the window because you can’t be arsed. You should be trained and competency checked with a WHT.[/quote]
with that in mind all that is covered in Lesson 1 of the L98A2 lessons.
stripping&clearning, loading/unloading drills, friring pracise and the rest of the lessons are not relevant to a “arms drill session”
it would make sense to have an Arms Drill WHT…but this will cause a two tier system, and confusion and potential dangers as a arms drill WHT’d Cadet could be allow to fire the L98 without lessons 2 onward…
[quote=“steve679” post=3760]
with that in mind all that is covered in Lesson 1 of the L98A2 lessons.
stripping&clearning, loading/unloading drills, friring pracise and the rest of the lessons are not relevant to a “arms drill session”
it would make sense to have an Arms Drill WHT…but this will cause a two tier system, and confusion and potential dangers as a arms drill WHT’d Cadet could be allow to fire the L98 without lessons 2 onward…[/quote]
I think you are just over complicating the situation. Chances are, by the time you are teaching rifle drill to a cadet they will have already done rifle lesson 1. You as the instructor (who will probably have a valid WHT anyway) can get them to port arms and then you can check each weapon yourself. Job jobbed.
[quote=“Baldrick” post=3586]
L103s and No4 DP rifles cannot fire, cannot chamber rounds and therefore are not really weapons.[/quote]
On a side note, an L103 can chamber a round, it just can’t fire it.
I can’t really see how arms drill is any more dangerous weapons-wise than IWT, which cadets can do without a WHT (obviously).
I don’t think that a seperate ‘arms drill WHT’ is required, simply having done lesson 1 should be sufficient.
[quote=“MattB” post=3776]I can’t really see how arms drill is any more dangerous weapons-wise than IWT, which cadets can do without a WHT (obviously).
I don’t think that a seperate ‘arms drill WHT’ is required, simply having done lesson 1 should be sufficient.[/quote]
Without a WHT yes, but lesson 1 is Characteristics, Safety and Sights. NSPs are the very first thing taught. WHT is part of the progression of training.
I really don’t see the objection to having a WHT to do arms drill.
IMHO Arms Drill would be conducted by senior cadets with experience who should be L98A2 trained and confident in handling it
As a minimum I’d expect
a. Have reached First Class Cadet standard.
b. Be above 14 years of age.
c. Be considered by the Sqn Cdr to be sufficiently mature mentally and physically to be capable of HANDLING the rifle competently and safely.
[quote=“the fixer” post=3785]I really don’t see the objection to having a WHT to do arms drill.[/quote]Because it is a test which covers a multitude of actions which have no relevance whatsoever to the activities involved in rifle drill. As such it poses an unnecessary obstacle to the conduct of the activity whilst offering no improvement in safety for the operators.
The NSP is the only part of the test which has relevance. However as the drill will be carried out in a controlled environment under the tutelage of a qualified DI (who should hold a current WHT) the weapons can be proven safe by the instructor as they are in lesson 1 before the NSPs are taught. There is clear and proven scope for a sensible alternative to be put in place.
There is also hope that the present rules as to which rifles can be used will be relaxed - if they permit us to borrow the PP rifles from the SCC (and with luck eventually source our own) then the WHT is not poissble on that rifle as it has no moving parts. I fear that, as usual, the paperwork will not be able to keep up with changes in policy (or, I fear, local decisions)
[quote=“the fixer” post=3785]I really don’t see the objection to having a WHT to do arms drill.[/quote]It just seems to be an extra obstacle to be put in the way.
Training on NSPs for the rifle can be done in under 30 minutes, and thus would be perfectly achievable if you wanted to run a one-day course - whereas training the cadets to WHT standard takes a full day by itself.
[quote=“MattB” post=3790][quote=“the fixer” post=3785]I really don’t see the objection to having a WHT to do arms drill.[/quote][b]It just seems to be an extra obstacle to be put in the way.
[/b]Training on NSPs for the rifle can be done in under 30 minutes, and thus would be perfectly achievable if you wanted to run a one-day course - whereas training the cadets to WHT standard takes a full day by itself.[/quote]
I think this (see bold) is where our views differ. I see it as part of training.
On a side note shouldn’t we focus on training for the wps primary purpose before using it for a secondary purpose?
It is part of training, but not rifle drill training. Let’s assume that all your cadets are trained on the weapon but half of them do not have a current WHT - a very possible scenario. Because of the WHT, those cadets cannot do rifle drill even though they are not firing the weapon or going anywhere near ammunition. There are no rules in any JSPs or Pams that say that you need a WHT to handle the rifle or to take part in rifle drill, it is just a rule made up by (I assume) by the air cadet hq.
Why are they called save handling rules then?
Why not just WHT them and be done with it? They can go shooting then, too.
Here’s my 2p’s worth…
@Merlin:
There’s a policy letter on sharepoint somewhere outlining the rules relating to parading with weapons, as already discussed. Having spoken to a number of chaps who’ve done the course, they all said it was really interesting, but then none of the guys I spoke to had learned arms or sword drill prior to attending. As a DI who already knows arms drill, sword drill, funeral drill, stick drill etc I suspect I might find it a little boring. Assuming you were Q-DI, then I suspect you might too.
Regarding the WHT issue…
For me, it’s impractical to arm an entire ACO parade. A number of years ago I was looking into the idea of setting up a ceremonial flight within my old wing along the lines of HKAC’s ‘C’ Sqn. The intention was to appoint an officer as OC along with a training officer and a number of SNCO drill instructors. Cadets could then apply to join the flight and after a day’s assessment would be permitted to attend bi-monthly practice weekends covering arms drill, banner drill, sword drill, funerals etc.
The idea what that they’d act as a guard for formal occasions, look after the Wing Banner and provide a banner party for it, and allow for the structured development of senior cadets in the dril and ceremonial world. We were also hoping that by creating a cadre of experts that continued to attend their loca squadrons we could eradicate some of the bad habits that never seem to go away.
For me this type of arrangement, weather at Wing or Sqn level, is the only way that it’d be possible for cadets to learn SA80 arms drill to the standard required for parading in public. In this case, the addition of 2 days of L98A2 training is hardly a massive burden! After all, most cadets love L98A2 IWT - providing it’s delivered by a good instructor.
So here’s a challenge for all those DIs who are bemoaning the need for cadet’s to be WHT’d before having a rifle issued - if you haven’t qualified as a SAAI, regardless of wether you’ve done the old WI course or not, book yourself on the course.
You can then train your cadets in weapon handling and arms drill. Win-Win.