This post is aimed at those who have attended and completed the ADIC at ATF RAF Cranwell.
A couple of questions if you don’t mind:
I think this is it for now; no doubt I will have more.
Thanks
WO Merlin
I would like this to be a positive and productive TOPIC. I think by allowing CFAV and Cadets to carry out arms drill is a step in the right direction for an ever changing ACO.
I also hope by shedding some light on the course it will appeal to more SNCO’s who will apply and use the qualification.
I hope this TOPIC is of use to people when we get the feedback.
It always was a really good thing and it only changed due to some pinko PC BS about youngsters carrying weapons in public. The number of veterans who commented negatively when it was stopped, was locally at least quite high. But they never got round to moaning in the right ears.
I only hope that they don’t make the course one that is limited to a supposed select few. Which if it is, it will ensure that it is a niche activity and thus be of little or no point to the majority of cadets in the Corps.
As someone who attended the course last year I will try and answer your posts as best I can.
Course consists of very intense training learning all arms drill from AP818, which includes all drill with the rifle and sword including funeral drills (this section is covered to ensure that we have covered the complete syllabus). We then went on to try and perfect the more common drills via a continuity sequence, an arms drill magic circle if you will. In addition we conducted mutuals in small groups to ensure that we got the phraseology of the lesson format, strike, size, grasp and also the hand positions etc., however these were not assessed. We also had a session on pace stick drill however this was only really to give our arms a rest. In addition we had a session with HQ staff re new dress regs that had just come out.
There was no test element on this course, all attendees must be DI’s and therefore have already passed an assessment on instructing drill. The course really just covered the expansion to our repertoire. However a new form of mutual has been introduced in recent years and so we did use this new format in training.
By far the most enjoyable of my 3 ATF courses however this is part down to it being the third time around and also not assessed. Good company too, worked hard during the day and wound down in the evenings (no real evening work) Also my arms and collar bones where bruised to $%&"£!
Pre-requisites are that you must already be a DI and that selection was via the Regional WO, there being only one place per wing there was some competition/selection at Wing level for the place. A pack up was included in the JI’s which included the new(ish) mutual format which we were asked to learn. Also for me, not being a shooting type I had to get trained and tested on the L98.
Those who have attended the course as qualified to conduct arms drill both with rifle and sword. There are other obstacles to pass, all cadets must have a current WHT on the L98, weapons need to be modified before use (foresight removed and front sling swivel changed from left to right). Also with regards to swords if officers wish to hire swords for a private event(say a wedding) then they need to be signed off as competent by an arms DI before they can have them. Also we can indent for swords for an event. In theory subject to Regional approval and provided it is on MOD property out of sight of the public it is possible to conduct a full parade, cadets armed with L98’s and officers swords. Not aware that this has happened yet.
Hope this provides some answers, regards, ARL
Thanks Arl,
Please could you answer me the following too…
Can cadets be armed on a parade, such as BoB or Remembrance, in public?
Can cadets form a Arms Drill team and parade in public?
The message I got at ATF is that we couldn’t do arms drill in public full stop. Also that the ACO didn’t want to do arms drill and was told by the Govt that we should. Mitch was particularly against the idea.
[quote=“the fixer” post=3515]Thanks Arl,
Please could you answer me the following too…
Can cadets be armed on a parade, such as BoB or Remembrance, in public?
Can cadets form a Arms Drill team and parade in public?
The message I got at ATF is that we couldn’t do arms drill in public full stop. Also that the ACO didn’t want to do arms drill and was told by the Govt that we should. Mitch was particularly against the idea.[/quote]
One of the big issues was the public aspect of it. See the last point in my post above. So no public parades full stop, with regards to Arms Drill Display teams this is possible however any display would have to be on MOD property and out of public view. Given the availability of weapons/instructors/qualified cadets I don’t see how that it can practicably be done at a sqn level.
The primary issue with this is the weapon, any parade/display will be done with the L98, not the L103. The Sea Cadets (who as we all know parade with rifles/bayonets/swords bought a completely ceremonial version of the Cadet GP Rifle which has no moving parts.
ATF staff are of the opinion that arms drill was not an activity we need however the decision has been made for them. That being said ATF staff and HQAC staff took a keen interest in the course and the message was very much that if we are going to do it (which we are) then we’re going to do it right.
My school of thought is that it will become an available activity at wing level and at annual/weekend camps as the number of instructors increases over the next few years. I’m working closely with the shooting crowd to find a way to work them as concurrent activities so that a camp may offer weapons training, live firing and arms drill.
[quote=“arl” post=3517][quote=“the fixer” post=3515]
Can cadets be armed on a parade, such as BoB or Remembrance, in public?
Can cadets form a Arms Drill team and parade in public?
The message I got at ATF is that we couldn’t do arms drill in public full stop…[/quote]
One of the big issues was the public aspect of it. See the last point in my post above. So no public parades full stop, with regards to Arms Drill Display teams this is possible however any display would have to be on MOD property and out of public view.[/quote]
Except that the government has spoken.
Regardless of what HQAC might have liked, or what they tell people on courses, the oppertunity is their under our current regulations to parade with weapons in public. Provided however that appropriate permission is obtained from the CoC. This requires a full admin order which details the prior training of personnel, and security procedures during the parade.
Now of course we all know that someone up the chain could just pull the plug because they don’t like the idea and invent any excuse they like…but hopefully some leaning from the veteran and service organisations involved might help grease the wheels…
It’s difficult to say “the public don’t want cadets parading with rifles” when the RBL, RAFA, local Council, &c are all pressing for HQAC/Region to authorise it, and the local Police are happy with the arrangements.
It’ll come.
Just a note I’m note sure the police around us are happy with it as some sea cadets got stopped by the police (may have been a PCSO) as they were taking their weapons back to their vehicle after a remembrance parade and wasn’t too sure about what to do. They didn’t have them this year but have had them on the two previous remembrance parades.
That’s where the staff member gets out their ID card and tells them to ring their Firearms dept for advice.
The bold is just HQACs excuse for ensuring that they are seen to play appropriate lipservice to the demand made on them. Yes we may be doing right but the scope will be serverely limited, given the restrictions, on weapons and instructors.
And the point of this is? Unless it’s transferable to being a squadron level activity, it has little or no real value. From my cadet days unless you were able to practice arms drill on a fairly regular basis and had done a lot of it, you soon became very rusty. The idea while commendable will only give cadets a taste of something that thet may not do for another year, maybe.
Personally having watched the QCS and various military parades in recent years I don’t particularly feel the L98/SA80 lends itself to arms drill as well as the 303, SLR or Garand. It’s too short.
my suggestion to make the most of instructors/weapons was to form a wing level drill and ceremony unit which is responsiable for the wing banner and any major wing parades.
Run a selection weekend in jan.
Training Feb/March
Inspection in April which signs them off for parading in public
Training/parades through out the rest of the year
December - have a formal xmas meal/party to end year/season
Start over again in jan.
Use a Plt Off/Fg Off as flight commander (trained in sword drill) and used to develop them
so in essence Wing Banner Squadron
I think the practicalities need to be pointed out here rather than stating that this HQAC’s excuse.
At a sqn level there is no access to L98’s, at best I have 4 L103’s within a sector of 6 squadrons, they are not stored at my unit and therefore I can either train that sqns cadets or go through the exercise of moving them to my unit for a night!
At present I have access to L103’s courtesy of the ACF however I have only 3 cadets current on the weapon at my sqn. Really this enables me to keep my skills up to date, I do use wooden cut outs to enable other cadets to be involved in whats going on. However 3 cadest will not make a drill display team.
We have discussed at Wing level doing something similar to what duty_pongo put forward however at present me being the only Arms DI puts alot of pressure on me to commit to that sort of programme. As I said the intention is to have at least one place per wing per year so in a couple of years each wing should have 3-4 Arms DI’s which will make drill display teams etc more of an option.
You require cadets to have a current WHT…for rifle drill? :lol:
Not just the practicalities the reality as well.
As you state lack of weapons, 4 between 6 squadrons and all cadets need to be WHTd, which I can only say is a level of HQAC administrative nonsense too far. Just 2 practicality and reality checks. The reason we now need a course is because the skills we had locally have to a large extent been lost.
According to S/point there are 2 courses this year and I just wonder what ATF’s ‘break even’ point is in terms of numbers. I think realising 3/4 per Wing the time frame will be difficult. And again the lack of weapons means keeping yourself up to scratch (not to mention WHTd) will be difficult.
The idea of a Wing ceremonial flight is good, but I’ve seen too many of these proposed of the years and invariably only revolved around 2 or 3 squadrons, providing the cadets and this was in the old days when we used 303s, so cadets had the abiity to practice so we were able to keep them at a certain level. As you may ascertain I was involved quite heavily in this sort of thing as a cadet and member of staff, before the nonsense of not carrying arms in public came into being. We aimed for a trained squad of 16 - 24 from which we could draw cadets and ended up with 10-12 available. Which as I say were from at most, 3 squadrons. We threw it open to the whole Wing and got nothing, in the pre Arms Drill course and WHT days.
I stand by my comments on HQAC paying lipservice to something as they’ve been told must happen and putting not insurmountable admin hurdles in the way, but nevertheless hurdles.
[quote=“talon” post=3528][quote=“arl” post=3527]
At present I have access to L103’s courtesy of the ACF however I have only 3 cadets current on the weapon at my sqn. Really this enables me to keep my skills up to date, I do use wooden cut outs to enable other cadets to be involved in whats going on. However 3 cadest will not make a drill display team.
[/quote]
You require cadets to have a current WHT…for rifle drill? :lol:[/quote]
Got to say I’m with Talon on this one. That’s a bit OTT. When we use our .303s on unit for arms drill we put them at half cock, this means none of the moving parts (cocking handle or safety catch.) can move, which makes it less likely they snag on jumpers.
Although if you insist on WHTs etc, if you have a display move which invoves handing over rifles, you could also do synchronised NSPs.
Whoever wrote the policy at HQAC has gone out of their way to make sure that it is as difficult as possible for us to carry out the activity despite there being many ways round it: The sole use of the L98A2 as opposed to other versions of the rifle and the associated requirement for each person to hold a full, current WHT; limiting it to MoD property and so on.
ATF personnel seem very much opposed to the activity but everybody else I’ve spoken with about it seems far more positive. There will rightly need to be hoops to be jumped through if we wish to carry out rifle drill but currently those hoops are made from barbed wire and set alight.
[quote=“Baldrick” post=3536]
Got to say I’m with Talon on this one. That’s a bit OTT. When we use our .303s on unit for arms drill we put them at half cock, this means none of the moving parts (cocking handle or safety catch.) can move, which makes it less likely they snag on jumpers.
Although if you insist on WHTs etc, if you have a display move which invoves handing over rifles, you could also do synchronised NSPs.[/quote]
Really you don’t need a WHT for that either. The only thing that you need a WHT for is to fire the rifle. I have no idea why your HQ would require WHTs - you aren’t firing volleys!
[quote=“talon” post=3543]I have no idea why your HQ would require WHTs - you aren’t firing volleys![/quote]To make it more difficult for us to achieve.
I can understand the person in charge needing a WHT to take them out and put them back but if they are in overall charge of the activity then all the actual handler requires is a basic safety briefing (don’t touch this, don’t drop it, don’t point it at anybody).
Ideally we would be permitted to source (centrally or per unit) the Parade Purpose rifle which is a fully deactivated L85A1 with bits removed and which can be kept in a locked cupboard. It wouldn’t require a WHT; it isn’t possible to do a WHT on the thing as it has no moving parts. The SCC have them and they are ideal, but the ACO decided they would only but the L98A2 GP and DP rifles.
I assume that part of the reason for not purchasing PP rifles is because the original intention is that the L103s may also be used for ceremonial drill in addition to weapons training. It’s still right there in ACTO 43, regardless of this latest “you can only use L98s” craze.
[quote]L103A2 Cadet Drill Purpose Rifle
what is the current position on No8 rifle drill in the same vien we (i) did with the 0.303s back in the day?
i was told by the WWO that all rifle drill will stop, while they (HQAC) deal with a solution (ADIC)
not that is applicable to our Sqn, some do have a more plentiful resource in the No8…is that deemed unsuitable for rifle drill or simply been overlooked as the course only covered the L98?