And this is why some people on here are standing up for the staus quo, as they know they’d never stand up to the scrutiny from outside people.
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It is a nonsense that people are suspended if it isn’t something serious ie financial or involving children.
What does the process of suspending and investigating achieve in the long term wrt ATC involvement?
It is just a way of putting the fear of the almighty into people to make them tow the line.
The most it should take in a voluntary setting is a chat.
Instances I know involving a suspension the outcome is a “bon soir mon ami”.
Why do HQAC think there mindless tinkering makes the blindest bit of difference to any of us?
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Who is? Everyone seems in agreement that the status quo isn’t working.
You saw my comment in respect of War Kitten, just too polished a reply to me.
Please, highlight the part of WarKitten’s reply where he advocated in favour of the status quo, I appear to be missing it.
Does she agree with the idea of outside representation as some do here or an opening up of the system to oversight of others?
You appear to be trying to answer my question with a diverting question. Where do you say WarKitten advocates the status quo?
Indeed I am in error and will erase part of the post, but I do believe despite denials that she is the CRAFAC.
I see.
Well said!
Really, just because I don’t agree with your jaundiced malcontented viewpoint and can construct sentances?
I am not the Comdt, have no wish to (nor can I) be Comdt. I’m just “disgusted of Tunbridge Wells”with all the negativity and sedition.
I say again, it’s not perfect but it could be a whole lot worse.
As to mentions of charges & Courts Martial, no volunteer is ever going to face military legal proceedings, and if anyone gets charged in a civil court then they are automatically entitled to legal representation. However for internal personnel management it’s a different matter governed by the internal process. Where the issue is, is that some parts of the whole do not follow ACP20 & that is wrong.
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Sedition is a mighty strong word to use! I would hardly describe the people on here as insurrectionists or their comments as an insurgency against the established order.
Most of these comments are around HQAC blindly and unfairly in some cases applying their own version of rules around dealing with people
I find the latest behaviour around the Volunteer Agreement disgusting. If you do not find threatening people with the sack if they do not sign a one sided document, full of if, buts and maybes, bullying, I wonder what you threshold for bullying is?
The worse thing about this is that I will, very reluctantly, sign the document. This is because the young people in the area of my Squadron are more important to me than fighting over a document that could never be enforced. I want to continue to give them the opportunities I currently can. If giving up and signing allows this to continue, I will sign!
No one has answered my question about why we need such a document? We have managed 77 years without one? Is it to stop us claiming employment rights? If so, and I repeat, it is pointless as you cannot sign away statutory rights!
This thread is talking about a Staff Federation. All of the comments have just confirmed my view that we, as CFAV, need such an organisation!
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So if your at work and for a return to work for sickness interview, I as a manager always informed the member of staff staff that they were entitled to have a friend or representative present at the interview plus a copy of the releveant HR documents. If it was a disciplinary problem the same applied. If you were employed would you allow management to choose who assits from inside the organisataion during and investigation? Others have said they were forbidden to go outside for help and assistance.
Embittered no never, just damn angry which led me to take my complaints to the CRAFAC bypassing the CoC and to my MP who contacted the Minister for Reserve Affairs. Having obtained documents from various meetings through FoI requests and contacting other cadet forces I have seen the spin and deception that has gone on over my Squadron. The reply from the Minister was just a cut and paste document of the documents I had obtained through the FoI. It will never by my ex-Squadron as its been in me for nearly 50 years. The spin deception and outright nasty behaviour has just not affected my Squadron but another one as well.
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I never said they would War Kitten. My point was that volunteers are treat with contempt and would be treat better by the military system rather than the crap they put up with in the RAFAC. Also if you are going to have a pop at another poster check your spelling first thats not how you spell sentence.If you are a current volunteer I wish you well in whatever you are doing but dont delude yourself into thinking that the hierarchy care two figs about you.
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I think that WarKitten is incorrect when she states that "no volunteer is ever going to face military legal proceedings. A number of the RAFAC volunteers involved with flying, I understand, are going to retain VR(T) status to enable them to fly within the military system. It is therefore possible , although unlikely, that they could be held accountable for dangerous flying practice which puts both the aircraft and the cadets at risk.
She further suggests that volunteers involved in internal personnel management procedures are not entitled to be accompanied. I would suggest that any internal rules that impact on individuals would still be subject to a test of fairness which could indeed imply that they can be accompanied/represented. When the organisation has the benefit of access to legal opinion for all its activities and engagements it would seem inequitable to deny the same for its volunteers.
While not intending to widen the debate I did a background search on this topic which brought up the following dated ref:
https://www.schofieldsweeney.co.uk/blog/managing-volunteers-the-legal-implications/
While I have not seen the latest volunteer agreement I would guess that if challenged some of it may not stand.
WarKitten and I are agreed on one thing, ill thought through personal comments about individuals or groups do nothing but undermine the many sound points that are made on ACC threads and most certainly do nothing in terms of setting an example to those for whom all of us contribute - the cadets.
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We are getting a little off topic here (holds own hands up)
Any more comments or news on this federation?
Upto the change to CFC as ACO members were actually able to be held responsible to a courts martial by virtue of holding a VRT commission as a RAF VRT officer, but that does not stop the possibility of courts martial for CFAVs now under CFC to be prosecuted as a civilian.
Civilians in particular service dependants within the armed forces can and do face courts martials at regular intervals. I suggest you look at the link, and look for the terms mister and master.
If on an overseas camp, are CFAVs going to handed over to the local police in the event of an incident, no they would be handed over to MoD police or service police to be dealt with under UK law.
CFAVs also had a way to redress grievance to above the CRAFAC to the Air Secretariat.The CFC stops this route of dealing with injustice and the fact the ACO I believe stops people other than AO as a representative is why I believe that a federation is not only desirable but I think is the only form of enforcing natural justice on the organisation. This was causing far to much open scrutinay of how the ACO operates.
Why would the ACO be afraid of a staff federation?
Given that HQAC bods look at this forum.
The question I suppose is would they recognise such a thing?
I suspect not, as it is outside their experience in terms of “workforce” representation and would threaten their supremacy.
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Don’t be too hasty in closing this thread, Balders. I think there may be other discussion points to be raised as people reflect on responses already made.
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MOL at Ryanair wouldn’t negoiate until a mass of workers at his airline organised and challenged him. At the moment the German operation at his airline are in dispute with the unions.