We’ve had direction from on high that the Adult IC and Countersigning Officer can’t be the same person when approving an event. All well and good until you are the OC and running an event as Adult IC - as the only person at Sqn level who can tick the Countersign box IS the OC…
I can see the need for additional checks and balances, but this is quite literally impossible to achieve due to the limitations of the system (which in itself is based on actual policy - no?).
Are they actually trying to suggest that an OC shouldn’t be self approving when Activity IC, as opposed to not countersigning? It sounds like they might be ignorant of how SMS works…
Because there is IC check box, countersign check box, then approval.
You can’t do the third without the first two, and even for Squadron approvable events you can elect to escalate it to wing.
However, I’ve never been picked up for this and have had an event audited where I fulfilled all three steps.
Slippery slope fallacy time because it is that silly, but to say that an OC can’t approve a weekend training day in their own building that meets the minimum SMS admin requirements kind of opens the door to saying they can’t approve a parade night which requires less planning and forethought.
The purpose of ACTO 10, ACTO 10 training, and SMS auditing is to ensure these things are safe and well enough planned. The intent is to reduce admin and enable activity while maintaining an auditable record.
Could be wrong, but I don’t think I, the Wg Cdr, or WExO have missed a line in ACTO 10. Now I think about it, I recently had contact from our WExO about an event I had IC’d and self approved. They had definitely looked at the authorisation tab, because they were asking for a “no public funding” comment.
It’s built into SMS that certain things can’t happen until others happen; I don’t think it would have been much of a stretch to bar self-approval if the OC was IC if that was wanted.
Despite SMS allowing it to happen, that is the understanding in our Wing too - that an OC cannot Approve events they are Adult IC of (the countersignature is fine - otherwise the OC wouldn’t be able to run any events). We normally just switch the Adult IC to another staff member on the event instead, for ease. If that isn’t possible, it is pushed up to WHQ (WExO) to approve. This was made clear by our Bader Rep when our OC was given authority to approve events.
That being said, the amount of Events I see that are Self-Approved by WHQ, RHQ or HQ RAFAC would suggest Staff Officers do not have to follow these rules!
While I can appreciate the spirit of the idea, where is it written in policy? ACTO 10 doesn’t dis-allow it, and our Wing SME’s should be auditing at least 25% of events that are locally approved.
As others have said, these are Low RtL activities, what’s the problem?
This all seems like a load of rubbish. The whole point of the ‘self-approval’ system is to empower OCs to organise and run events whilst keeping the approval at the lowest possible level. ACTO 10 makes this pretty clear.
If the CoC has a problem with the quality of what’s being uploaded and approved, that is a different matter. But there is no reason the OC can’t fully organise/plan and run an event without anyone else looking at it. They are trusted to be an OC, so trust them to run basic non-RtL activities too.
And if you can’t trust them, remove their self-approving powers via the policy in ACTO 10.
@Ben_Wakefield this thread may be of interest to you. I doubt you can give exact guidance, but certainly seems to directly effect the things you work on!
This happened under Jason Chalk in SW region. It was never formally written anywhere, much like a lot of his nonsense.
It’s paid lip service to in our wing but I have never seen it enforced because as others have said, it isn’t policy it’s made up.
I understand the sentiment (sort of) as getting someone else to check that what you’re doing makes sense, but it’s overkill for the activities we self approve.
I thought that’s where the Audits come in, and that Wexo’s get an email if it’s self approved so they can look at it before the event.
It’s quite common for a Bob standard squadron event on squadron grounds that the Oc will organise, counter sign and self approve (or I thought - I could be living in my own bubble!)
And I’m used to it being looked at, only once I’ve had an email back going scuse me you’ve forgotten X so I’ve stopped it being approved until you’ve done it
As WSO all my self approved events go to region and I get a note that regional COS or Region Commander have looked at my event. (If they actually look at it or not is another matter).
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SMS shouldn’t let you do anything out of policy. If you can sign as activity IC and then self approve do it. If you are not permitted to do this then SMS will stop you and make you escalate.
In my experience SMS won’t let anyone other than the squadron OC countersign, not even someone from a higher formation such as wing.
When I had an app returned whilst my OC was on holiday and they weren’t back until a day before the event. After trying a range of people at wing to countersign it with no avail, I was advised by the Bader team through the MS Teams channel to get the OC role reassigned so it can be countersigned.
I have done it before several times… not really an issue and nothing in the book says you can’t, best practice would say have different people - sometimes its the way it works out
Yep. When this has cropped up before, if there’s someone else going I get them to log in and be the IC so I approve it. Of course on the event itself I’m going to be the one in charge. It’s admin for the sake of it.
Hi Yorkie,
As others have pointed out, from a policy perspective there is nothing that prevents the OC being the Activity IC and self approving in line with ACTO 10.
Feel free to drop me a DM with any details re the local policy you have been issued and I am happy to follow-up.
Good god, an outbreak of common sense. Well said, but now watch out for someone on a job creation scheme bringing out a new regulation to stop any outbreak of efficiency.
