hey I’m a cadet Sergeant and I received an email saying that 3822’s are being replaced to cut costs. Is this true??? it was received a while ago and nothing since. It’s confused little me!!! :unsure:
1 Like
There has been growing discussions over the years, noticibly more over the last few, which indicate the removal of the paper book and the implementation of an ID card. Nothing concrete yet on how it will work though.
Oh, and welcome to the forum.
an ID card wont replace the record book aspect of a 3822 however, and in fairness how often does the average Cadet show their 3822 as a form of ID? I would predict more so in Millets and Burger King to get a military discount than they do at any Main Gate!
as i see it there is valid reason for the record book (at least until SMS records become easier to fill in/become 100% accurate and access readily) and see no reason to replace the F3822
I would say that its used as much for ID as for records, however it never ceases to amaze me that it is seen as valid ID as all you have to do is get your picture and a pritt stick and you now have valid ID.
interesting, both my time as a Cadet, and now Staff there is rarely an occasion the F3822 is offered for ID.
twice a year maybe, for a week at at annual camp and prehaps some other occasion to visit the local RAF Station for something.
for the likes of shooting and particularly flying F3822 hold details of previous experience and NOK details. which i know could be covered by a TG form, but adds more paperwork to the system and doesnt offer record of previous GIC experience, or WHTs held.
both would need to be covered by a seperate system if it moved to an ID card (which is bound to be more expensive than a mass produced generic book) which in turn would require further expense.
An obvious solution would be a “flying logbook” but isnt that was the relevant pages in a F3822 is for? many will argue this is what SMS is for but firstly requires the VGS to have the right access to the Cadet records on site (in the caravan?) to determine what lesson or experience each Cadet will have.
at the end of the day it then requires either the VGS to input the detials (unlikely) or for the records to be passed to Sqn to be updated - which i know is already done to a point.
i couldnt see this happening so readily on a range “let me just check your WHT records” pulls out an iPad and logs in etc…just isnt practical
I can see this happening eventually - but I do think that we are a long way off for many of the reasons given above. Cadets would require read access to their records on SMS, as would anyone organising activities such as sports, gliding, flying, etc. to see what they currently have readily available in the F3822s. You’d then possibly start dealing with Data Protection questions as to who is allowed to see what and if there are any last-minute substitutions (as happens regularly in this organisation for one reason or another) those same people would need immediate Internet access in places where WiFi may not be present and 3G/4G can be hard to come by.
[quote=“steve679” post=14965]interesting, both my time as a Cadet, and now Staff there is rarely an occasion the F3822 is offered for ID.
twice a year maybe, for a week at at annual camp and prehaps some other occasion to visit the local RAF Station for something.
for the likes of shooting and particularly flying F3822 hold details of previous experience and NOK details. which i know could be covered by a TG form, but adds more paperwork to the system and doesnt offer record of previous GIC experience, or WHTs held.
both would need to be covered by a seperate system if it moved to an ID card (which is bound to be more expensive than a mass produced generic book) which in turn would require further expense.
An obvious solution would be a “flying logbook” but isnt that was the relevant pages in a F3822 is for? many will argue this is what SMS is for but firstly requires the VGS to have the right access to the Cadet records on site (in the caravan?) to determine what lesson or experience each Cadet will have.
at the end of the day it then requires either the VGS to input the detials (unlikely) or for the records to be passed to Sqn to be updated - which i know is already done to a point.
i couldnt see this happening so readily on a range “let me just check your WHT records” pulls out an iPad and logs in etc…just isnt practical[/quote]
Someone did the maths a while back and came up with the conclusion that ID cards would be cheaper than book printing. Was it a 80% saving per unit??? Can’t recall sorry.
1 Like
I vaguely remember some figures along the line of 32p per 3822 compared with 7p per ID card.
Those figures may be entirely made up however as they are plucked from the dim recesses of my mind.
[quote=“redowling” post=14971]I vaguely remember some figures along the line of 32p per 3822 compared with 7p per ID card.
Those figures may be entirely made up however as they are plucked from the dim recesses of my mind.[/quote]
Those figures sound about right for production costs. However, there is also the question as to who will be printing the ID cards - and whether that would increase the real terms cost.
If it is to be done by squadrons - will they be expected to invest in any additional software and hardware necessary to ensure that the ID cards were uniform across the Corps, or would they receive financial support from the powers that be?
If it is to be done by Wing HQs or even HQAC - does the cost of the time spent by an Admin Officer in creating initially thousands of bespoke ID cards, then hundreds more per year, with unique data still make ID cards cost effective? Obviously, there is software available which can allow printing to be carried out in bulk, but this is reliant on all squadrons providing the necessary information in the same format, otherwise the Admin Officer will still be spending time converting the information they have received into squadrons into the right format for bulk printing.
Although this is not a question we would necessarily need to concern ourselves with (unless it is the former and no support is given for additional software and hardware) and I know this is all hypothetical at the moment, but it strikes me that, if it does happen and it turns out to be more expensive in real terms than the current F3822s, in these times of budget cuts and stretched resources, there are many more important things the Corps could (and should) be spending money on at the moment.
Surely the ID card could be automatically churned out when the cadet is added to SMS? Lttle manual intervention required other than posting them out.
In theory, yes. But that would require a smooth integration with SMS - something they have struggled to get right with Ultilearn.
Plus, there would still need to be a way of manually ordering replacements if a cadet lost their ID card (how many times do you see a cadet coming to the adj because they’ve lost their F3822 or it’s been through the wash and is no longer legible).
In theory, yes. But that would require a smooth integration with SMS - something they have struggled to get right with Ultilearn.
Plus, there would still need to be a way of manually ordering replacements if a cadet lost their ID card (how many times do you see a cadet coming to the adj because they’ve lost their F3822 or it’s been through the wash and is no longer legible).[/quote]
I don’t think that’s an SMS issue though is it…!
I don’t see how ordering a replacement would be an issue - probably an email or a click of a button would initiate the process. Plus an ID card is significantly more resistant to washing than a paper book!
In theory, yes. But that would require a smooth integration with SMS - something they have struggled to get right with Ultilearn.
Plus, there would still need to be a way of manually ordering replacements if a cadet lost their ID card (how many times do you see a cadet coming to the adj because they’ve lost their F3822 or it’s been through the wash and is no longer legible).[/quote]
I don’t think that’s an SMS issue though is it…!
I don’t see how ordering a replacement would be an issue - probably an email or a click of a button would initiate the process. Plus an ID card is significantly more resistant to washing than a paper book![/quote]
I have to admit I don’t know the underlying cause of the SMS/Ultilearn issue. All I’m saying is that if the powers that be are considering this as an option, then it needs to be considered from all angles for practicality and cost, and if it is to be done through SMS, it needs to actually work before it is introduced.
As for the ID cards going through the wash - I agree that they are usually more resistant, depending on the quality. Whilst I never put my F3822 through the wash as a cadet, I did once manage to leave my Uni ID card in a trouser pocket that was heading for the washing machine. When it came out, the plastic covering had started to peel off - bringing with it some of the lettering! My Uni then helpfully charged me £11 to replace what was essentially a poor-quality ID card.
For a bit of investment, you could have ID cards with chips that held everyone’s information from SMS. Arriving at a shooting detail for example, portable card reader, check WHT, job done. The technology is there.
Hmm, investment . . .
[quote=“cygnus maximus” post=14978]For a bit of investment, you could have ID cards with chips that held everyone’s information from SMS. Arriving at a shooting detail for example, portable card reader, check WHT, job done. The technology is there.
Hmm, investment . . .[/quote]
It is probably the best solution but you need to factor in the equipment at every squadron so that the SMS data can be uploaded to the card and the mobile devices capable of (securely) reading it back off as required.
Having generation of an ID card tied to SMS would be a good enough idea but it would need to wait until the cadet had settled and a photograph had been uploaded. Of course, who verifies the photos are a true likeness?
I think a hybrid system may be the best way forward, consisting of a small wallet in which the cadet inserts an issued, simple ID card and a copy of an annually-renewed medical certificate (to do away with the constant need for TG forms), along with a small booklet for recording things like WHTs.
All of this makes the current 3822 (or a trimmed-down version of it) seem more reasonable.
We’ve had several nights in the bar discussing this and the single biggest problem with any form of technology is that the cost (investment) will be passed to sqns, as HQAC seem to think that sqns have bottomless coffers. We all HAD to buy hardware so WE could play HQAC’s IT game and we also have to pay for internet access.
I don’t really think it matters what you give cadets it will be lost or damaged in some way. Incubus’ hybrid idea seems OK, but there will be bits to get lost or damaged.
It could be done, if there was a will, across all of the cadet forces if the MOD saw fit to do it.
I work in an FE/HE College, and every learner has an I.D. Card (A plastic one like a MOD90) which is churned out by the central computer system. If they lose it the system just churns out another one at the press of a button. They even have electronic access to their profiles to see what they have achieved. The electronic chip also allows them to buy food if they have loaded them with money, and wea re now trialling a swipe in register system.
This was done with COTS equipment/software, and with little fuss.
It can be done. However my first sentence probably applies in this case!!
The will probably is there across the rank and file of the organisation; ok there will be the odd Luddite who won’t want to do it, the sort who still refuses to accept BADER, but in general if there was an easy, reliable way to transport information around and existing technology allows us to do that, why would we not want to do it?
40b is absolutely right though, the stumbling block would be at a higher level. The older ex-Regulars on here will remember the concept of having some personal details on the magnetic strip on the back of the old 1250s, but I don’t think it was ever used. Such a facility would save a lot of time going in and out of Op Theatres! I believe that the USAF has had a system on these lines years ago where you just swiped a card to ‘arrive’ on a Unit.
Regrettably though, it’s unlikely that the MoD would fund card readers and production facilities for every Sqn and HQ, and not every Sqn could afford to do it themselves I suspect. Unless we all did it, would it be worth much and would it actually work?
I think that the easiest way would be using RFID cards (contactless, like Oyster cards)
The cards themselves cost 15p or so, when bought in large batches.
The readers cost about £10 to £15 and can be set to emulate a standard keyboard. This means that you can attach them to anything with a USB port, including PCs, laptops and some tablets.
I have some cards and a reader, and I made a few demos a while ago. If people are interested in some options for how it could work, I’ll post them up in a week or so (very busy at the moment).
Card chip readers are also only around £10 each, and bought in bulk would provide a good bulk sales. Enough for the ACO to supply and still make a return on savings within five years. SOftware can be done via COTS packages. Heck since it’s only training data (not any personal data) it can be written via almost anyone with a IT background in that area for a small cost.