Gosh! What a lot of words on what clothes a youth leader should wear.
How about this for an idea? The reason we have uniformed adult staff in the ACO is so there is a structure that looks a bit like the RAF from the position of being a cadet. From that point of view the OC should be a Flt Lt and other squadron officers should be Pilot/Flying Officers.
Either you are wearing the uniform for the cadets, or wearing it for your own vanity, which is it?
You make a valid point and yes in this case you are correct, HoweverâŚ
We are seeing and hearing of numerous changes in the organisation some good, some bad and some we donât know as they keep it so close to their chests you only find out if you need to by which point itâs too lateâŚ
We as staff made an agreement and the rules, requirements and returns were laid out for all to see. We are abiding by the agreement however we are now seeing goalposts moved and new rules and regulations brought in but nothing has been discussed with people at the coal face just the yes men at the back. Whilst this isnât really something that affects staff greatly we need to ask whatâs nextâŚ
PTD entitlements are already being muted as under review.
we all agreed to do this for the cadets HOWEVER we did it not out of blind loyalty to the cadets but because we enjoy doing it, yes we moan and groan but ultimately we are doing it as we enjoy it. If people continue to feel under valued and continually feel unhappy there is only 1 outcome they leave and that leaves us under strength and unable to supply the activities to the cadets and they then start leaving.
The CAC seems pretty good at social media at getting the message out to cadets and members of the public but there seems to be a blanket ban on getting the message out to staff on what is happening and whenâŚ
By that logic the OC should really be a Sqn Ldr⌠
Hi all
I am a pilot officer.previously a CI (adj./training officer/flying and gliding/general instructor/ex UT staff on a VGS) I will have completed my two years to Fg Off in about 2 weeks. I have completed SCC this January. Thereâs a possibility I will take over as OC at my squadron next month. I was due to take up post as OC at a different sqn this May but, for various complex reasons, this did not happen.
I was, after having completed OASC and OIC, proud to have achieved what I did and be a VRT officer. However, having seen one or two other officers who got through the same process at different times. Iâm not so much anymore. Standards for a pass seem quite low to me. That said, I fully accept that we are a youth organisation and we seriously need commissioned adult volunteers so some fudging will happen. I completely agree that the commission, uniform and rank structure is for the benefit of the organisation, the RAF and the cadets. What do I get out of it?
I get to buy my own MTP, replace worn out kit, rank slides, VRT pins and keep everything sharp and shiny. I get to be part of the organisation, I get to enjoy it hugely, give back what was invested in me as a cadet and see the cadets enjoy it too (beware those who claim its the other way around) Currently Iâm pretty happy with the deal. Buying some more rank slides, getting no 1"s remarked or changing my email footer wouldnât really make me any happier. If I am the highest ranking officer serving on sqn then, from a cadet perspective, everything looks correct and works well. Itâs not critical as they have no problem with rank weirdness in general. For example, when I was a cadet, adult NCO=WO. I found it really odd when I came in as an adult to have cadet FS and adult Sgt. They seem to have no issue with it though. I do think that the sqn OC ought to be highest rank on sqn. As time served Flt Lt is acting unpaid, there shouldnât be any drama in reverting to Fg Off if required. Flt Lt from another sqn pulling rank? Never seen that. Salute them? Call them sir? Nope, junior officers (up to Flt lt) do not pay each other compliments so Cranwell told me. I have no problem doing this in front of cadets though, makes sense and maintains the structure from their perspective.
SNCOâs have a promotion process (no idea about other wings). Promotion to FS is not automatic and neither is WO. There are boxes to tick, things to achieve and an interview. Sounds a good plan to me.
I donât see that becoming a Flt Lt merely by hanging around is worth anything. Actually same goes for Fg Off in my mind. If you can run a sqn as a WO, then why not Plt Off?
All VRT officers are only ever substantive Fg Off. Reading the docs this is until you retire where, if youâve done 10 years, you can keep any rank.
Having seen VRT colleagues of every single level be utter (insert offensive derogatory description of your choice here). I have seen various Flt Lts and Sqn Ldrs behave as if they were running Spitfire sqns (badly) and treat mature and committed staff like a holes.
Easy way to not get stressed about it is to remember that they are only Fg Offs, only acting higher ranks, possibly doing the job for the wrong reasons and cos no one else wanted to, do give up their free time and are not a reflection on the good ones.
Having been in the Fire Service, we went through a process called rank to role. There were specific criteria for each rank. If you met them, you got the rank and the pay. If you didnât, you went down or were offered a package to leave. Our package should be the same, 1 month pay for each year served ie. Nothing at all, not a bean.
VRT pay (actually allowances as we are volunteers not employees) I always think of as a small thank you from the organisationew for a specific task and The pay difference between ranks is so small that it really makes little difference after tax.
Bottom line, if I get Fg Off next month then great (bet paperwork takes longer). If not no big deal. If I become OC and am highest rank on sqn as a Plt Off, fab. If they make me acting unpaid Flt Lt, the only thing I would really like is for that to be done straight away so I donât have to buy more slides or redo no 1âs. If it is in another two years, not a problem at all and not fussed. Otherwise it all seems a bit of a drama about rank slides. Anyone who is genuinely upset please get in touch. I will personally buy you Air Chief Marshall rank ribbon for you to sew onto your Jim jams and you can be whatever rank you wish in your sleep.
Please everyone relax. Be a happy substantive Fg Off and enjoy yourself. Until they change to a cadet commission, we have been gifted an RAFVR full commission. Be pleased about it.
What is the ACF model you speak of?
Agreed big_g, especially the last sentence.
Quite simple, if you are the OC Squadron you are a Flt Lt, if you stand down, but stay a squadron officer you become a Flying Officer. This should not make any difference to the person concerned (unless they are in the ACO for reasons not connected with helping cadets)
As for knowledge and experience - Many years ago I was the Captain of a four engined aircraft (actually I was also the base Captain) with Brymon Airways. I joined BA as a First Officer and the four gold rings changed into two. My knowledge and experience didnât get less, but my job did; I wasnât doing a Captains job, so I didnât wear a Captainâs uniform.
The problem is it is very box ticky and matey. My recently promoted FS was saying a bloke he met on his SSIC has ticked all the boxes but because heâs not mates with the WWO and associated cronies his promotion has been delayed to âimprove his drillâ, but his forte is AT and DofE and is on the Wing teams for this. So why the need for drill expertise?
My recently promoted FS does drill but is more into shooting, but his lack of drill expertise (heâs the first to say and is open that heâs not interested in drill) hasnât held him back.
The ACF seems to be run / operated predominately by SNCOs with Officers taking a more executive/training role at Company or County level. Iâve known a couple of Officers to run ACF detachments, but they seem to be 2nd Lts or maybe Lt for a little while, but predominately detachments are mostly run by Sgts or Staff Sgts, even Sgt Majors seem to have a non cadet facing role. It does appear that once promoted to Lt ACF Officers move away from the day to day cadet facing role.
The ATC on the other hand seems hung up on and hard-wired into having Officers running and doing things on squadrons and essentially treats SNCOs like small children who need hand holding and this spills into the mindset of the SNCO cadre who only see themselves as order/instruction doers and not instigators and leaders. Iâve heard a number of SNCOs say things to officers like âitâs your decision, Sir/Maâamâ purely so they can avoid having to take responsibility.
Many years ago as a WO assumed command, received the post effectively running the sqn when the CO was away for work, which was a regular occurrence. But I wasnât allowed to sign things in his absence or make decisions (Wingâs say so) because I wasnât an officer. It was this that led me to commissioning and running 2 sqns over 15 years, before I resigned my commission and became a CI again. I didnât become a CI due to toy throwing because of change of status ie Flt Lt to effectively a Fg Off, but because I had too much going on in my real life, wasnât impressed by the way I saw uniformed staff were being treated by the organisation and there wasnât anything I wanted to do in the Corps that needed a uniform. If Iâm honest I feel the organisation treats all staff who give up their free time with little or no respect, but without the uniform there is no obligation to do things and I canât be told I have to do things. I was asked if I wanted to go onto Wing Staff when I said I wanted to resign my commission, but I said I wasnât interested on the basis if I didnât feel that I could be a sqn cdr how could I be a WSO? Iâd have been the worst sort of WSO if given a patch as Iâd visit squadrons all the time.
No you would have been the best WSO, providing you were there asking what can I do to help. The WSOs you never see as much of a problem as those who forget they arenât running a Sqn anymore.
I think that the complication though comes from the fact that in the regular RAF, all of the junior ranks are gained on a time-served basis - so Flt Lt isnât a rank that goes with a position, unlike Sqn Ldr or above.
Are you sure that the junior ranks in the RAF are all gained on time served? I know a 10 year served SAC, yes really, 10 years served and still an SAC. PMSL
I donât have a problem with making Junior Offocers be Junior Officers rather than going straight from Plt Off to Flt Lt but this system A) doesnât address the problem of us constantly throwing Plt Off into command as there is no one else. They will just be doing it for less money. B) Means that we will end up with big Wing Staff teams infested with the elderly who have given up their commands but rather than staying on the unit supporting the young Plt Off they had prepared for the job are instead doing a minor Wing Staff job to keep their Flt Lt.
I think he is referring to Junior Officers (Pilot Officer, Flying Officer, Flight Lieutenant). Substantive rank in the regular RAF is Flight Lieutenant, all officers will achieve it on a time served basis as per my earlier post on the thread. Promotion to Sqn Ldr and above is on merit and by competitive selection.
Substantive rank for Airmen is SAC, with promotion to Cpl and beyond on merit and by competitive selection. Some trades may achieve acting rank (RAFP Cpls for example) but they will be paid as LAC/SAC until selected for promotion to substantive Cpl.
MB
I meant both - the non-NCO ranks (with the possible exception of SAC(T), which Iâm not sure about) are also on time served.
But yes, the promotion to Flt Lt in the RAF is time-served, which is what was largely related to this thread.
Until you get to a situation that existed when I was a cadet and earlier time as staff, where you seemingly had more Flt Lts and or they stayed as sqn cdrs longer, which meant by the time a Fg Off or in the extreme a Plt Off was offered a squadron they had effectively served an apprenticeship and were better prepared.
What needs to be looked at urgently is why more experienced people donât want to take commands or leave like I did. Why do people give up as sqn cdrs? I doubt anyone is really asked and what they say taken forward to HQAC. Until they do this, we will continue to have HQAC thinking that everything is wonderful and weâll continue to get ill-prepared people taking squadrons. In our Wing a lot of arm twisting has gone on to fill sqn cdr posts with the inevitable result that they bin it after a short time. I think we need to lose the attitude that just because someone is an officer they are immediately suited to command a sqn, likewise just because someone is a SNCO they love drill and donât possess the wherewithal to command a squadron. The only reason this attitude persists is that an Officer can have things pinned on them if things go wrong and the childish mentality that exists in many SNCOs.
I donât know why FS and WO arenât considered for sqn command posts as they will by definition of their rank in the current system be experienced and had to tick boxes to say theyâve done this and that. I had a Sgt and FS doing Adj and TO and equally as well as any officer.
Why we canât have a shortened system for say FS and WO to commission, if they want to, is beyond me. Having done an old style WO course, IOC and OSC, the IOC taught me little or nothing and the OSC was similar. All the IOC seemed to be about was I had to salute every Officer, which was no different to what I had been doing and hold the door open for them. So I reckon a FS or WO could by-pass OASC and just do a shortened IOC say a weekend. Even if a FS has only just become a FS they will have done at least 5 years, which is far longer than many Officers put into sqn cdr posts, if they are a WO they will have at least another 5 years under their belts. There are few officers who will have been and gone within 10 years.
It is a bit chicken and egg though - why would you want to command a squadron but not want a commission?
Thatâs a fair question for ânew entrantsâ to the uniformed staff ranks.
For existing SNCOâs, perhaps they find they prefer the challenge of running a sqn, to the traditional âDrill and Disciplineâ role of the SNCO. If youâre a WO(ATC), and the above information is correct, taking a commision will mean taking a pay cut for 2 years as a Pilot Officer, for all of the extra work of command. Plus, having to find an extra week holiday for your Junior officers course.
Why not have a version of the Armyâs Late Entry Officers course, and a pledge to sustain the WO(ATC) rate of pay for 2 years/until promotion to Flying Officer.
Interesting point - the ATC should probably have a similar system to the RAF whereby you canât actually get a pay cut just because youâve been promoted.
Having gone from SNCO to Plt Off I see no need for a special conversion course, IOC is already a conversion course. It takes people who are mainly already CIâs or SNCOâs and gives them their initial officer training, we arenât training people straight off the street in 95% of cases so why would we need a special course for NCO to Officer? In a huge number of Squadrons CIâs are already the Adj or Training Officer do they need a special shirt course too?