Yet another uniform rant

Everyone Uniform and Drill
1

So, I’m in an angry mood about this for no particular reason…what could possibly go wrong with venting online?

Female cadets (like female airmen*) are scaled for and entitled to an issue of skirt and
 trousers.

Female cadets (like female airmen*) are entitled to choose whether they were skirt or trousers for whatever they might be doing that day. It’s personal preference, so: fixing planes = trousers, etc, etc…the only time it comes down to higher authority is for formal parades, so everyone is dressed the same.**

I have heard the following two statements aimed at a female Cadet Corporal and Cadet who asked why they weren’t allowed to wear trousers: “I prefer you in skirts” from the VRT officer present and “You should wear skirts…trousers are sometimes allowed…but you have to wear skirts on parade!” from the FS(ATC).

This was overheard by me and a visiting ex-cadet/now regular RAF techie, who pointed out that it was balls and were told to ‘pipe down’ because it was ‘none of our business’.

If I was boss, I’d just bin uniform skirts entirely, it’s not 19-sodding-40. But leaving that aside, considering trousers are needed for flying, visiting ships, etc and advisable for a wide range of activities why:

  1. do female cadets rarely get issued trousers?
  2. do members of staff (usually male ones) have such a fit at the thought of them wearing them?

In the words of Perry Mason: ‘GMG’ :mad:

Edit: actually, I forgot to add that this is the same squadron that requires its female cadets to go out and buy dresses for squadron dinners. They are actually forbidden from wearing uniform, because: ‘girls like wearing dresses’

*Yes, that’s right. There’s no such thing as an ‘airwoman’.
**and if you ever watch a passing out parade (or ‘graduation’, but that’s the subject of another rant) at RTS Halton, you’ll generally see everyone in trousers

2

Because this is the ATC and anality rules.

3

The person(s) in question need to have AP1358C pointed out to them which is a higher authority than they are!!

4

Ahhhh yes, if asking for the answer on ACC fails you can always refer to the dress regs, then you’ll see what you can actually wear and when. Dress appropriate to task!!!

5

Do the same people also use the term “uniform means ‘all the same’”?

6

Shocking! How could you tell?

Just to clarify…I’m not looking for an answer to a question or a reference from dress regs here. I already know what the rules are. I’m just throwing an internet tantrum because people are ignoring them.

7

Not all regular airwomen are scaled for trousers. It’s restricted to certain trade groups.

8

I dont know where you got your info but its wrong unless its changed in the last 2 years which I doubt very much all females have trousers issued on first kitting at Halton and can wear them whenever they want after trade training my other half is still in the RAF and is pers admin she still gets them issued and if they do what trade wouldnt?

9

Shocking! How could you tell?[/quote]

Surely then, they should all be in trousers, unless theyre making male cadets wear skirts too, which is an entirely different issue…

10

I offer to order our female cadets trousers, they always say no!

11

As do ours!

12

They’re scaled for both. Female cadets didn’t originally get slacks (female trousers) as there were problems with supply in the early days of girls in the ATC. In those times girls were given male trousers for practicality and unless people are completely niave about such things, male trousers do not fit girls/women.

As for being ordered to wear them for parades, so what. Where’s the problem with females actually looking like females, ie wearing dresses and skirts? It has nothing at all to do with it being the 1940s or whichever period of time we may choose to pick on. As with every formal parade, it’s whatever the organiser dictates and always has been.

And as for being told to buy dresses for dining-in etc, if my experience of women (here I include my wife and daughters) the chance to buy a posh frock and all that goes with it, is not to be allowed to pass. When my daughters had their proms it was a real palava, but you know what to see them out of jeans and looking like women was a joy for my wife and I. We got my son a dinner suit which was less stressful. I personally feel a room full of men in black dinner suits and women in posh frocks looks something special. When we have sqn dinners, they are given the options, uniform, dinner suit (boys) and posh frocks (girls), I have only had ONE girl not go down the posh frock route and 2 boys not wear uniform.

13

[quote=“timmyrah” post=6456]I offer to order our female cadets trousers, they always say no![/quote]Ours are issued both whether they like it or not!

There are occasions when either type will be ordered - skirts for most formal parades, slacks for first aid training/shooting/weapons training. Otherwise it’s their own choice what they wear.

14

[quote=“glass half empty 2” post=6458]They’re scaled for both. Female cadets didn’t originally get slacks (female trousers) as there were problems with supply in the early days of girls in the ATC. In those times girls were given male trousers for practicality and unless people are completely niave about such things, male trousers do not fit girls/women.

As for being ordered to wear them for parades, so what. Where’s the problem with females actually looking like females, ie wearing dresses and skirts? It has nothing at all to do with it being the 1940s or whichever period of time we may choose to pick on. As with every formal parade, it’s whatever the organiser dictates and always has been.

And as for being told to buy dresses for dining-in etc, if my experience of women (here I include my wife and daughters) the chance to buy a posh frock and all that goes with it, is not to be allowed to pass. When my daughters had their proms it was a real palava, but you know what to see them out of jeans and looking like women was a joy for my wife and I. We got my son a dinner suit which was less stressful. I personally feel a room full of men in black dinner suits and women in posh frocks looks something special. When we have sqn dinners, they are given the options, uniform, dinner suit (boys) and posh frocks (girls), I have only had ONE girl not go down the posh frock route and 2 boys not wear uniform.[/quote]

If we’re going to argue that women should dress like women (and if you really want to I can get all historian with you and start citing references about women’s clothes throughout history to shoot down any argument that women ‘should’ wear dresses) then we could go down the route of arguing that women shouldn’t be in military uniform or anywhere near the armed forces at all. But we won’t because that’s anacronistic and sexist. Your whole post smacks of: “Put on your pretty dress like a good little woman”

I didn’t say girls shouldn’t wear skirts on formal parades if that’s the order from on high. I took issue with the FS’s comment that dress regs required them to wear skirts on formal parades, which is balls. Like I said, go and look at some photos of RTS Halton pass outs.

And again, I didn’t say girls should wear dresses if they want to. I took issue with ordering them to go out and buy them. What if daddy’s little princess decides she has to have the dress costing ££££££s that she’s never going to wear again, when the family genuinely can’t afford it? And what if the girl wants to wear uniform? It may be rare, but you know it happens.

I get the impression you’re disagreeing with me for the sake of being contrary.

[quote]timmyrah wrote:
I offer to order our female cadets trousers, they always say no!
Ours are issued both whether they like it or not!

There are occasions when either type will be ordered - skirts for most formal parades, slacks for first aid training/shooting/weapons training. Otherwise it’s their own choice what they wear. [/quote]

^this is how it should be.

Everyone should get all the kit they’re scaled for, end of.

AND! I’m sick of civvy trousers with blues shirts at flying etc! If those cadets were issued the uniform which they are scaled for and entitled to then they could rock up in uniform and crack on without messing about getting changed, being mixed dress, etc, etc…

15

Something obviously not quite right at that Sqn. When we do our ‘initial kitting’ for new cadets, the females are issued with both skirt and uniform slacks.

16

Actually, I’ve found that slacks don’t fit the really young girls anywhere near as well as the male trousers, because they don’t have hips yet.

17

Not at all.

I do wish that people wouldn’t cite the dress regs as though it was the a perfect tome.

The dress regs are full of bits that many (some of whom get all chapter and verse) no doubt blatantly ignore. Ever been to a licensed premises (pub or club) after a parade in uniform? Ever seen cadets wearing uniform at local community events? Ever seen cadets in photos with MPs and or Cllrs? According to the regs these are a no, no. Yet I would put good money on it, that people who ramble on about dress matters choose to overlook bits at times. Would you really take a change of clothes if you wanted to go to the pub/club after a parade or parade night? Personally after a formal parade if there’s ‘afters’ at a pub/club I change, but it’s more a case of practicality and not wanting to get something spilt on my N°1s, than adherance to dress regs. But other than that I don’t bother, say after a normal parade night.

I’ve looked and I cannot see anything where it says explicitly girls should or shouldn’t wear skirts, it comes to local discretion, which is no doubt what happens as per Halton passing out parades. If the OC changed there they may well change it. Thus as ever there are instances of ambiguity and interpretation. The fact that the FS says it is in the dress regs is probably due to local rules, that they’ve ‘grown up’ with and 30 years of habituation.

It’s not anachronistic or sexist to like to see women looking like women, many women like to look like women, rather than the androgeny that seems to have become the norm. When have a works do, the women (who invariably wear jeans/trousers every day), ditch them for something more dressy. Us blokes wear jacket and tie or suit, which is not much different from what we wear normally.

18

[quote=“glass half empty 2” post=6487]Would you really take a change of clothes if you wanted to go to the pub/club after a parade or parade night?[/quote]Yes.

19

[quote=“MattB” post=6497][quote=“glass half empty 2” post=6487]Would you really take a change of clothes if you wanted to go to the pub/club after a parade or parade night?[/quote]Yes.[/quote]Yes Indeedy!

20

Not at all.

I do wish that people wouldn’t cite the dress regs as though it was the a perfect tome.

The dress regs are full of bits that many (some of whom get all chapter and verse) no doubt blatantly ignore. Ever been to a licensed premises (pub or club) after a parade in uniform? Ever seen cadets wearing uniform at local community events? Ever seen cadets in photos with MPs and or Cllrs? According to the regs these are a no, no. Yet I would put good money on it, that people who ramble on about dress matters choose to overlook bits at times. Would you really take a change of clothes if you wanted to go to the pub/club after a parade or parade night? Personally after a formal parade if there’s ‘afters’ at a pub/club I change, but it’s more a case of practicality and not wanting to get something spilt on my N°1s, than adherance to dress regs. But other than that I don’t bother, say after a normal parade night.

I’ve looked and I cannot see anything where it says explicitly girls should or shouldn’t wear skirts, it comes to local discretion, which is no doubt what happens as per Halton passing out parades. If the OC changed there they may well change it. Thus as ever there are instances of ambiguity and interpretation. The fact that the FS says it is in the dress regs is probably due to local rules, that they’ve ‘grown up’ with and 30 years of habituation.

It’s not anachronistic or sexist to like to see women looking like women, many women like to look like women, rather than the androgeny that seems to have become the norm. When have a works do, the women (who invariably wear jeans/trousers every day), ditch them for something more dressy. Us blokes wear jacket and tie or suit, which is not much different from what we wear normally.[/quote]

As others said about changing: yes. I don’t go into licenced premises in uniform, except if I’m taken in there by an officer (ie: RAFA Club on Remembrance Day). You shouldn’t be popping into your local for a drink on your way back from the squadron in uniform. And, yes, I have gripped a VRT officer for that in the past.

As for dress regs not explicitly stating skirts or not on formal parades: that’s exactly what I said. You seem to be violently agreeing with me on that point.

And I’d argue that a woman wearing women’s trousers or slacks looks no less like a woman than a woman in a skirt. Or should you and I be wearing togas and competing in sporting events naked to showcase our manliness? Towards the end of the Roman Empire, trousers (adopted fashion from ‘barbarian’ cultures) became quite popular as a daring fashion among women because they were seen as more ‘revealing’. This also meant that they were regarded as very feminine, while Roman Legionaries continued to wear leather and fabic skirts as they always had: the very epitome of manliness. :wink: