Seeing posts on here about NCOs running sqns and the rumours/stories around that in some wings Sqn Cdrs are “running” two or three squadrons.
It gets me to wondering after WSO visits, where they haven’t run a sqn for many years, come down telling us how to do it. My senior and deputy WSO haven’t been in the hot seat since the inception of Bader and many of the other things that now exist, that they have no real experience of. My senior WSO was last on a sqn as a sqn officer 14 years ago (he did c.4 years as a CO before that) and openly admits to not really knowing the first thing about the day to day running of a sqn today. He sees people doing and says he wonders how they manage it. Being old cadet mates I’ve suggested coming off Wing Staff and running a sqn, a suggestion which he has never been entirely keen on.
I think it would be beneficial for WSOs to step into sqn cdr roles on a temporary basis, while the pawns are moved around, when a sqn cdr suddenly resigns or goes NEP.
I see many what I consider as failed sqn cdrs going onto Wing Staff. Failed sqn cdrs as they take on the role and leave it within a couple of years, often on the flimsiest of reasons. These then find their way onto Wing Staff given an area role and come to sqns and critique someone who’s been doing it through the thick and thin of their real lives and just got on with it, rather than curling their toes up when things get a little bit difficult.
I happen to believe that a ‘posting’ system for Wg Staff appointments could be beneficial. 4 yrs in the appointment (as for a Wg Cdr) then back to a squadron, unless you specifically want to apply for the role again.
I think it offers a great deal of benefits in terms of development, variety to keep people interested and fresh ideas. Obviously there is the downside of people making change for changes sake, but is that better than doing it ‘the way we’ve always done it’?
GHE2 has raised a valid point, and is making the Wing Staff similar to those at HQAC, making policy/giving advice with little understanding of how a unit is run day to day in this modern day of Bader & SMS. The experienced gained from looking after a group of Squadrons would also benefit them if they were to then run a unit as they would be able to draw on best practice from across the sector.
How many Wg Cdr’s do you see in post for just 4 years? if they are appointing the WSOs, the appointment would just be removed, and the same issue would occur. Commonly new Wg Cdrs, are senior members of wing staff from the previous ‘cabinet’ and the old pals act kicks in.
The only way it will happen is if the WSO themselves wants to step back into a sqn role, and the demotion, and reduced pay that goes with that (cynical maybe)
Hopefully the up coming addition to the Courses ran at ATF of a Senior Officers Course, for WSOs should provide them with some of the skills required to be more effective in their roles.
In theory, the whole point of HQ Staff Officers is that they have the experience gained from the ‘front line’ together with the skills and knowledge of actually ‘staffing’ work on behalf of their subordinate units. You’re absolutely right though that the maintenance of ‘currency’ will always be an issue in any HQ, but moving senior people ‘back down’ the chain of command is virtually impossible to achieve as a routine and regular undertaking.
I’ve always been a great believer in staff officers returning to the front line for maybe one in three or four tours (for Regulars that is) to not only keep up with current work practices, but to also actually be seen by the junior workforce. But, the problem is always what jobs to put them in to? Most ‘front line’ posts for Regulars are career progression jobs and are done in the early stages of someone’s career. Although the ACO is different, we would still have the same problem of where you would actually put ex WSOs. Existing Sqn Cdrs probably won’t like being moved sideways to let someone ‘drop back down’ for a couple of years and I’d wager that they won’t like ex WSOs being one of their Sqn Offs either. Furthermore, what do you do about the rank? You can’t have Sqn Ldrs running smaller sqns and the WSOs themselves won’t take too happily to being demoted for even a couple of years. Do HQAC make it policy that you can only do 4 years as a WSO? That might work, but it probably won’t attract people to the positions and it will still have the issue of what to do with the individuals after life as a WSO. Do you only appoint WSOs towards the end of their uniformed ACO career? Again, it might work, but you’d end up with a geriatric WSO group (even more so than we currently have).
My view is that the onus is on the WSOs themselves to better understand the problems their Sqn Cdrs experience. Listen to what their Sqn Cdrs and Sqn staff are saying, be visible at their Sqns often enough to make sure they are not only aware of the issues, but also experience them, and they need to remember the old adage of why HQs exist in the first place - the HQs are there to support their Sqns, not the other way around.
Edit: This could be radical - Rather than simply promoting failing Sqn Cdrs into WSO jobs, why not just sack them or not extend their service? If they are so useless as a Sqn Cdr, why aren’t people considering the ‘Force Multiplying’ effect of having them supervising and then damaging (possibly) 4 or 5 Sqns!
Some Wing Staff do more than others, some will do a 6 - 8 weekly of each unit in there sector and the occasional weekend activity, others get out and about all over the place, encouraging sector run activities, and supporting the organising staff. AFAIK Dep OC is supporting a unit that is currently officer less, and is taking the lead their.
It is more a case of keeping them updated with the reality check of squadron life.
[quote=“glass half empty 2” post=14867]I think it would be beneficial for WSOs to step into sqn cdr roles on a temporary basis, while the pawns are moved around, when a sqn cdr suddenly resigns or goes NEP.[/quote]As far as I can tell that’s exactly what my wing does - certainly our deputy wg cdr has stepped in a few times in his local area, as has our BTEC officer.
I think for the vast majority, they see Wing Staff as a way out and haven away from the day to day dealings of sqn life. One of the comments, which leads me to this conclusion, I’ve heard from a few is thank God I haven’t got to worry about being on a sqn every night, but IMO that’s what the Corps is all about. Not fiddling around doing something, with the exception of Wing Sports Officer (one job I understand no one wants), every once in a while so that people know you’re still alive. We have dead jobs such as HSO, CPO, Media/Comms, Training/Development, Flying/Gliding where you might hear something once or twice a year, then they disappear again.
The problem is best practice invariably fits with specific sqns in specific circustances and not suited to all. Trying to apply best practice from disparate places like squadrons, universally, would be like taking the best bits from different top cars and trying to build a supercar. Some bits wouldn’t fit, just like in relation to sqns. To do it would take time and would require adaptation.
Sorry if you’re in this organisation for the kudos of a rank, you are IMO in the wrong place.
Personally, I am all in favour of WSOs seconding onto Squadrons for periods of time so they can better understand what the average Squadron Commander and their staff go through on the coalface. I would like to see them spend 2-3 months a year working on a Squadron. Rank doesn’t have to be an issue and the WSO would have to understand that they would not be in charge, they would simply be on secondment supporting the unit like any other CFAV.
…and I wouldn’t stop there. There are plenty of permanent Wing staff who have no concept of what it is like on the coalface and what burden their petty, inflexible bull puts on the most important group of staff in the corps (i.e. Sqn staff). The same for Region and HQAC staff.
However, it is pie in the sky. The egos involved won’t be able to cope and they all consider themselves to be above Sqn work because they have ‘been there, done that’. Equally, a lot of Sqn Cdrs wouldn’t be able to cope with having someone one or two ranks above them knocking around on their units.
Haven’t commented for a long time. Many of you on this thread were recently commenting how CI’s are looked down on by uniformed staff and are now crapping on WSO’s. I’ve been up and down the ladder numerous times, as personal circumstances changed, and this seems like whinging for the sake of it. I read on here because I value peoples opinions but I spend far more time planning for activities.
My idea stems from seeing posts here saying that sqns are run by SNCOs and even CIs and the rumours you hear of Sqn Cdrs running 2 or more sqns as there aren’t enough officers to take the post, when there are WSOs who would benefit hugely from taking the role of Sqn Cdr interegnum. Most wings must have 10-15 perfectly servicable officers doing “Wing” jobs which aren’t ‘full time’ in the same way as being on a sqn, who could be put in as temporary sqn cdr, until Wing have found someone to take the role permanently. The focus and priority in the Corps should be that sqns are staffed “properly”. There is of course the fact that many hide away on Wing Staff as they don’t want to be on a squadron or feel that being sqn staff is beneath them in some way. On our Wing we had a sqn cdr who went NEP, came off and was put as a sqn officer. After a little while it was announced he was going onto Wing. Knowing the OC of the sqn I asked what the deal was and he said he was useless, turning up once or twice a month with numerous excsues as to why not, and Wing was probably the best place for him. The OC thought great an experienced Officer to take some of the pressure off and he was effectively a millstone. I think you may find something similar happening wrt WSOs going onto sqns as A N Other officer.
It would interesting for some of these to have to deal with phone calls and requests to be at or get someone at the sqn during our working day. Let alone the bone policies. I suggested at a COs Conference that Works Inspections should be done at the weekend and the Wing AdO nearly had a coronary and came up with reasons why not, none of which were sympathetic to sqn staff.
[quote=“glass half empty 2” post=14894] The problem is best practice invariably fits with specific sqns in specific circustances and not suited to all. Trying to apply best practice from disparate places like squadrons, universally, would be like taking the best bits from different top cars and trying to build a supercar. Some bits wouldn’t fit, just like in relation to sqns. To do it would take time and would require adaptation.
[/quote]
This is what our WSO is doing. Although the best WSO we have had, he is fairly new in post and after running a successful Sqn as OC is now trying to apply the same methods he used at his Sqn to his sector Sqns…and in some cases really won’t work do to the differences between Sqns, as easy to identify as the basic infrastructure such as building facilities and size of and distribution of ranks amongst the Staff team without considering the difference between demography of the different towns (his old Sqn was at one end of the county, his sector now at the other) ability and drive within the Staff team and personal interests.
That said I can see what he is doing, and in principle it is in general a good idea however due to a “blinkered view” his understanding of how different Squadrons operate is missing. He has (recent) experience at the coalface but only on one Squadron which is vastly different to the majority of his Sector Sqns.
I do agree that WSO should have a broader experience however and although out current Sector Officer wouldn’t benefit from returning to the coalface (he is actually temporarily running a Squadron) it would be worthwhile if a mix of Squadrons are visited to gain an appreciation of the different ends of the Scale Squadrons operate in.
Oh to having 10-15 wing staff. WE have 5, ALL the wing staff have at least 3 units to look after and 3-4 main jobs. I do 3-4 nights work a week I answer emails and actions through the day. I appreciate I may not know all that happens on a unit but am on call as a sounding block for OC’s and staff alike.
I like the thought that MCO is a non Job and that really is the reason the corps is reducing by 10-15% in the last year. I think that there are a lot of other issues but one is we mainly only use word of mouth to advertise.
Sports are good fun but without units taking on board a action to do at local level they will decline.
Flying/glyding now that both are up and running the thought that there is nothing to do in coordination is not the case.
I think it would be interesting to get unit staff to work at wing level for a short period rather than the other way round. I agree on curency and that there may be some WSO that are moved upwards out of the way but I know in our wing they all work just as much as unit staff albeit in different ways.
My obligations are to the Cadets, but I have to support the staff to enable them to do there job.
[quote=“kfd” post=14927]
I think it would be interesting to get unit staff to work at wing level for a short period rather than the other way round. [/quote]
our WSO does this, one of his CO’s is appointed as a deputy for a period so if the WSO is unavailable or needs a hand then the CO steps up to the plate.
i think it works well, for a start we get to see COs of our neighbouring Sqns visit which has its benefits both ways, and has a good “succession planning” aspects as each 2IC at the Sqn steps up for a short period.
Thinking about the situation in my Wing, when I had my WSO interview for commission last week, I was informed that we have less than 50 officers for our 34 squadrons - and that included WSOs. My OC is currently running two squadrons and I know of at least one other case of this happening in my Wing (although this may have changed by now). Until recently two of the four squadrons in my local area were run by SNCOs (one a WO and one a FS) - and that only changed when the WO went for commission. I know of at least three other squadrons in my Wing being run by SNCOs - and there are a lot of officers who, in the next couple of years, will be refused extensions due to their age (or may not want to continue), which means that without a decent influx of officers between then and now the situation is only likely to get worse.
In an ideal world, I would love to see WSOs performing short-term roles on squadrons to remind them what happens at the coalface. However, in my Wing at least, that is currently not practical. The Sector Commanders (and their deputies) have their hands full with their usual duties and trying their best to support the SNCOs who are running squadrons - and that leaves (if my memory serves me correctly) two WSOs who are not already on a squadron plus the Wing Commander. Those two could be asked to help, but it would be a sticking plaster and wouldn’t resolve the issues we have with staffing.
Perhaps in a few years, if the numbers of officers increases (taking into consideration the current success rate from OASC that is a big if) then it would be an interesting experiment to see if squadron-based tours improved WSO understanding of what goes on at the coalface, considering the changing nature of the Corps and the different ways different squadrons operate.