The ADCC and ATC were both formed originally to prepare and train young men for service in the RAF during WW2. If hypothetically there was a WW3, would the cadet forces be disbanded or do you think they’d get the cadets to ‘support’ the war effort? I don’t mean like actually fighting, I mean doing such jobs as refuelling and re-arming aircraft.
Perhaps, though in my opinion, if World War 3 were to occur, it would be a war dominated with those of a superior technological position. It probably won’t be a war determined by which side has more manpower, as may have been the case in WW1/WW2.
An apt quote I think would be:
“I know not with what weapons WW3 will be fought, but WW4 will be fought with sticks and stones.”
It’s not about who has the more men now, as technology and weapons of mass destruction have become prominent options in the course of war since the previous World Wars.
WW1 lasted for four years
WW2 lasted for six years
If WW3 were to happen, I very much doubt it’d even last six weeks
I think you’ll find that we actually have a to-do list in case of a major outbreak of war. It’s all in ACP20B somewhere. Actions on outbreak of war or something. I don’t have an electronic version to hand.
Found ACP20b on BADER. First paragraph of the publication goes:
‘On declaration of war or on nuclear exchange, whichever is the earlier, air cadet activities will be suspended. In view, however, of the difficulties in communicating during a War Emergency, it is unlikely to be possible for HQ Air Cadets to issue a formal notification of the suspension of air cadet activities. In the absence of any formal notification, therefore, Regional Commandants, Wing Commanding Officers, Squadron Commanders and Officers Commanding detached flights are to take action to close down their units and to carry out the administrative instructions set out below, as soon as it appears from official announcements in the press or over the national radio and television networks that major war is inevitable.’
Thanks for the responses everyone, especially Baldrick .
[quote=“cpl connor” post=2303]
'On declaration of war or on nuclear exchange, whichever is the earlier, air cadet activities will be suspended.[/quote]
Funny that.
I know, I was thinking the same. :ohmy: ‘On declaration of war or on nuclear exchange, whichever is the earlier’ surely if a nuclear exchange has happened then the target country would have a crippled war production to say the least…
[quote]ACAI103 ACP20B wrote:
[b]AIR CADET ADMINISTRATIVE INSTRUCTIONS
INSTRUCTION NO 103
ACTION TO BE TAKEN BY REGIONAL HQs, WING HQs AND SQUADRONS/DETACHED FLIGHTS ON DECLARATION OF WAR[/b]
INTRODUCTION
- On declaration of war or on nuclear exchange, whichever is the earlier, air cadet activities will be suspended. In view, however, of the difficulties in communicating during a War Emergency, it is unlikely to be possible for HQ Air Cadets to issue a formal notification of the suspension of air cadet activities. In the absence of any formal notification, therefore, Regional Commandants, Wing Commanding Officers, Squadron Commanders and Officers Commanding detached flights are to take action to close down their units and to carry out the administrative instructions set out below, as soon as it appears from official announcements in the press or over the national radio and television networks that major war is inevitable.
ADMINISTRATIVE INSTRUCTIONS FOR CLOSING DOWN AIR CADETS REGIONAL HQs, ATC WING HQs AND ATC SQUADRON/DETACHED FLIGHTS
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Disposal of Squadron Standing Imprests. Cash held is to be deposited with the nearest RAF, Army or Royal Navy unit or Government office and a receipt obtained.
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Security of Firearms and Ammunition. All ATC weapons, both lethal and drill purpose and all ammunition are to be handed in to the parent RAF station armoury or guardroom and a receipt obtained, which is to be filed in unit records.
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Safeguarding of ATC Buildings, Equipment and Records. Equipment held on charge by Wing HQs and squadrons/detached flights which are not located on RAF stations, together with unit records are to remain in the Wing HQ or squadron/ detached flight buildings. The local squadron chairman will be responsible for safeguarding the squadron/detached flight building and will hold the keys of such buildings. The local squadron chairman will inform the area secretary of the TAVR Association that he holds the keys and give details of how he can be contacted. The responsibility for securing and holding the keys of Wing HQs not located on RAF stations rests with the Wing CO who should similarly inform the area secretary of the TAVR Association. RAF station commanders will give instructions concerning ATC buildings located on RAF stations.
RE EMPLOYMENT OF FULL TIME STAFF AT REGIONAL AND WING HQs IN WAR
- On completion of the closing down of Regional and Wing HQs, Regional Commandants and full-time staff at this HQs who have not already been re-appointed or re-assigned are to report for directions to the nearest Department of Employment Exchange.
PARTICIPATION IN HOME DEFENCE BY REGIONAL AND WING HQ STAFF AND BY RAFVR(T) OFFICERS AND CIVILIAN INSTRUCTORS
- All personnel who have no call-up liability should be encouraged to volunteer for service with any section of the national Home Defence organization. Which section will depend on the best use that could be made of their individual professions or skills. Regional Commandants, Wing COs, Squadron/Detached Flight OCs should encourage all staff at an early stage in a war emergency in the knowledge that air cadet activities will be suspended.[/quote]
…however, this regulation has not been amended for many years and was clearly designed to cater for a Cold War WW3 scenario, i.e. that of an initially conventional war in Europe (possibly for several weeks/months), potentially going nuclear; or a situation where there was a strategic nuclear exchange without any conventional fighting (however this was felt to be unlikely, certainly from the late 1970s onwards).
Serial 6 is interesting, as during the Cold War, arguably, there were several potential roles for Cadet Forces staff and aged 16-18 cadets - although perhaps not in theway you might think, and certainly not in the mold of the work/role of the ATC in WW2:
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All Cadet Forces staff (and probably, in reality, ATC cadets over 18) were eligible to join the Home Service Force (HSF), and - in a war emergency - would have been welcomed with open arms if they knew how to use a .303 or SLR! http://hsfassociation.com/hsf-history/
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Many ATC staff and cadets would have been potentially valuable to the Royal Observer Corps (ROC), indeed many ATC staff I suspect “double hatted” in both the ATC and ROC …plus the joining age for the ROC was 16 (!) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Observer_Corps
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As part of their war plans Local Authorities (i.e. Councils) were required by Central Government to recruit volunteers to carry out the huge number of tasks that needed to be done under the control of wartime Regional Government …some idea of the scale of this work can be found in Steve Fox’s excellent work http://www.subbrit.org.uk/rsg/features/sfs/file_12.htm …and if you ever want to scare yourself silly, read the whole website! (“Governing Britain After The Bomb”) In all likelihood all voluntary organisations would have been asked to encourage their members for war duties with Local Authorities, and would have manned first aid and triage points, rest stations, feeding stations, etc.
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Although RAFVR(T) Officers were, during the Cold War - as now - exempted from call out by RAF regulations, there are some interesting aspects of the Reserve Forces Act 1980 (RFA80) which I suspect - in reality - would have called out VR(T) Officers either (a) during the passing of Queens Orders during Transition To War, or (b) as is suggested in RFA80, they could have been subsequently called out in their local community (rather than “nationally”) by order of Lord Lieutenants, Deputy Lieutenants, or even Magistrates! …option (b) presumably was designed to assist with Home Defence, i.e. maintaining law and order during the “survival period”, leading up to reconstruction efforts by Regional Government.
…it’s difficult to see now how the Cadet Forces would assist the Armed Forces in a conflict, given the currently expeditionary nature of warfare. However, this may change in the future.
Having said that, there are several examples of ATC Sqns based on or near RAF stations assisting with deployments, e.g. I have seen pictures taken at Coltishall in August 1990 of ATC cadets helping to paint Jaguars “desert pink” for Op Granby (Gulf War 1). Undoubtedly there will be other stories…
Cheers
BTI
I heard a tale once, from an ex-cadet back in the 70s. (And I don’t know if there’s any truth to it at all.)
The cadet was on camp in Cyrpus, when the Turkish invaded. He says that the cadets were immediately evacuated back to the UK by the RAF, but the officers were ‘pressed’ as it were to help on base. Anyone ever heard anything similar?
I’ be heard stories of the cadets being evacuated from Cyprus after the yanks bombed Libya as it was the closest NATO base and they were worried about retaliation. Never heard anything about officers being asked to stay behind though.
I’ve met wartime air cadets who did this along with perimeter security and other things such as basic a/c maintenance and some radio work. They have all said with with much regret that in the modern era H&S would not allow this. But then what they did was in what I would regard as very much of the time in a Enid Blyton/Boys Own way.
It is worth considering that these sort of activities are the sort things that lead to the cadets of the ADCC acquiring ‘training’ that contributed directly to the war effort, as cadets and as servicemen, and, the subsequent formation of the ATC. On understanding the historic significance of this to the ATC, it begs the question, would there have been a separate Air Cadets, post war, if this hadn’t been the case.
It’s got nothing to do with modern health and safety as you put it, it’s down to the sheer complexity of modern aircraft and their associated equipments.
OK yes the complexity is a factor, but chatting to the WW2 cadets they worked alomgside the regulars and not on their own. I’ve known of cadets at camp assisting with such things on ‘work experience’.
But that aside if there is another major conflict we as a nation will be a bit part player and not the last line of defence and launchpad for an offensive.
More due to the fact that it’s actually against international law…
[quote=“glass half empty 2” post=2326]
But that aside if there is another major conflict we as a nation will be a bit part player and not the last line of defence and launchpad for an offensive.[/quote]
If WW3 happens any time soon, it will be out in the Pacific. The UK would play a similar role to Japan in the First World War.
And I’ve never bought the whole: ‘Nuclear weapons mean the war would be over really fast’ line. They said that about ‘modern technology’ in 1914.
Someone (Cpl Connor) has been playing COD Nazi Zombies? 
More due to the fact that it’s actually against international law…[/quote]
In what way do you consider such an involvement to be against international law?
Although it almost-certainly wouldn’t happen in practice with modern-day ACO Cadets or staff, suppose in principle that adult non-combatant citizens of a country at war (declared or otherwise) were involved in undeployed support activities to a war effort. Surely that has always happened in the past, and isn’t seen as a Geneva Articles breach?
During WW2, there were sanctioned contingencies that were way beyond the scope of even that limited interpretation of citizen involvement. I’m old enough (just) to have served with members of the ROC who were in that other Air Force corps during wartime, and they most-definitely (as air force civilians) were legally-authorised to have Lee Enfields wrapped in greasy paper in their posts, with formal advice given to them as to their operational use (pop-shots at Dorniers aside).
The potential involvement of any adult uniformed civilian volunteers under circumstances of emergency would be subject to strict (and perhaps rapidly-drafted) regulations, but not to acknowledge their potential capability would be madness…that is, their involvement if the circumstances were right. It is definitely not the case that current defence planning considers either a WW2 or classic WW3 scenario to be happening any time soon, both of which might arguably have seen a modern-day reprise of the ATC’s multi-layer operational involvements of 1941-45.
I’m sure this will come only as a surprise to some on this forum (because there are a lot of clued-up members), but the oft-cited ‘example’ of how the Civil Air Patrol (ie the main Air Cadet Organisation in the USA) can be used in wartime is a false comparison for a UK setting. The CAP is the official auxiliary force for the USAF, and as such it’s adult members can be activated under federal order for national activities such as Homeland Defense and other limited support operations: they do not have 14-yr olds loading Sidewinders onto F-16s, but they do have 18-yr olds hanging from helicopters with searchlights helping look for crashed aircraft. Under wartime in the US, that could be moved up a gear: in the UK, there isn’t really even a gearbox (at present).
[quote=“tango_lima”]
If WW3 happens any time soon, it will be out in the Pacific. The UK would play a similar role to Japan in the First World War.[/quote]I’m hooked. Please do me a favour, my knowledge of geopolitical history for that era/location is pretty limited, but it’s an interesting comment. What did you mean by this?
[quote=“tango_lima”] And I’ve never bought the whole: ‘Nuclear weapons mean the war would be over really fast’ line. They said that about ‘modern technology’ in 1914. [/quote]Exactly. Unless there was rapid mutual wipe-out of strategic stand-off nuclear capability, it is unrealistic to think that a WMD exchange would be an equivalently-rapid start-stop event. So saying, infrastructure and options would be massively reduced the instant any such war commenced, so although we’d have more time to want to do something, our capabilities and opportunities would be really limited.
Now that as of today we’ve had two decades of post Cold War ‘peace’, I just wish the world was genuinely a more stable/predictable and happy place. But looking on the bright side, at least the world hasn’t ended…despite all the expectations. Did anyone lose a bet?
wilf_san
The answer may lie in watching the DVD ‘Threads’ which was released in 1984.
Scared the shi…hell out of me and still does.
[quote=“Gunner” post=2345]The answer may lie in watching the DVD ‘Threads’ which was released in 1984.
Scared the shi…hell out of me and still does.[/quote]
Should be personal compulsory viewing for all Cadets, on an individual basis, once old enough to cope with it. And that’s possibly well-over the age of 18.
And I’ve never been able to look at a Traffic Warden the same way since I first saw it…
wilf_san
If anyone’s interested, here’s a link to the full ‘Threads’ movie/documentary? : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MCbTvoNrAg