Why I quit as a CI (a while ago)

There is no single reason, any in isolation might be OK to regretfully accept but in aggregate: time to quit.

The motto of ATC is Venture, Adventure. A definition of adventure is “engage in daring or risky activity”. I’ve had a lifetime of many and varied adventure activities starting with my time in both Scouts and ATC. I have skills and experience to share. In retirement I felt it was opportune to help do for a new generation what those organisations did for me all those years ago and help deliver a safe introduction to some adventure activities.

It was so difficult to get permissions for outdoor activities that in my roughly 5 years as a CI the only such activities in my squadron were the (supposedly) annual DoE Bronze or Silver expedition.

On one occasion I proposed taking cadets to a local park for a basic navigation exercise. I was told there must be a instructor:cadet ratio of 1:6. A parent was willing to help so we would be able to take 12 cadets - that was not permissible unless they had CRB check and an expedition leader’s certificate, otherwise they could attend but would be treated as one of the cadets, the parent would reduce the number of cadets allowed so I could only take 5 cadets. Furthermore the park featured an ornamental pond where the toddlers float their boats and feed the ducks. This was classified as a hazard and I must ensure that only cadets with an RAF swimming certificate were allowed within 2 metres of the water’s edge. This was probably the most extreme example of objections to proposed activities there were others, but the message I got was the only acceptable level of risk was zero (this at a period over which there were a number of air cadet fatalities in flying accidents).
Contrast that with my teenage years when as a group of 12 Scouts and a teacher we undertook a 3 week backpacking trip, no reams of paperwork just a one page outline plan, a kit list and parental agreement. Maybe that was too relaxed an approach but my recent experience in the ATC was that the aim seemed to be stop anyone doing anything adventurous at all costs.

I was perfectly happy to contribute 6 hours a week to squadron, mostly teaching plus maybe one or two full days a month to take cadets Flying/Gliding/Shooting. As a CI the only reward I sought was the satisfaction of seeing young lives changed so much for the better. That happened but the experiences we were able to offer were so limited that it was rare for a cadet starting at 13 to still be there at 18. Frankly it was boring, most of the time little more than lessons, drill and making (in the cadets words) crappy airplane models. In the end some of the more enterprising cadets organised their own adventure activities without any adult supervision, out of uniform and totally dissociated from the ATC except that the group were all Cadets. I believe my navigation and expedition lessons had motivated them to want to try those skills in the field. I hope the lessons stood them in good stead, however had they been my kids I would have preferred them to have been accompanied by an experienced adult rather than hiking unaccompanied in mountainous territory.

Unlike uniformed staff CIs get no financial support or other form of recognition, I knew that from day one, it was not my motivation and I had no expectations. On the other hand the occasional “thanks” would not have gone amiss. My age meant I was not eligible for a staff role (some might choose to characterise that as age discrimination). I could claim travel expenses, they were not essential to me but I covered significant monthly mileage and the expenses were a help, however administration of them was illogical and unreasonable. I would get home to duty mileage. However if I was collecting a group of cadets from Squadron to go flying I could only claim mileage from Squadron to airfield, not for the mileage from home to the squadron. How does that make sense?

On one occasion I took a car full of cadets to a drill competition at the airfield we used for air experience flights. I was told by the CO that was not eligible for mileage because parents should be doing that - OK but in that case you’d not have had a full drill team there, and how about telling me there’d be no mileage BEFORE asking me to take a car full of cadets?

On one occasion on arrival at the airfield we were told the weather had closed in and there was no chance of flying. So on a subsequent occasion, as the weather was questionable I called the airfield before departing. I was told they were expecting things to improve and there was a good chance of being able to fly. Half way there I got a call from the airfield to say the weather had worsened and there would be no flying so I turned around and brought the cadets back home. On that occasion my mileage claim was rejected by Wing HQ. Should I have continued to the airfield? Or claimed to have done so? By being sensible, saving half the mileage cost and not wasting as much of the cadets and my own time, I had to bear the cost, OK it was less than £30, a relatively affordable sum to me but for others: four times the statutory minimum hourly wage?

I could list more and often do so to the jaw-dropping astonishment of my interlocutors at the crass stupidity of the rules and that there are people who adhere so rigourously to them. Sorry guys but having started as a strong proponent I now find I’m actively trashing the reputation of ATC. The positive outcomes I saw were in spite of the squadron administration, not because of it.

I stuck with it because I did see some very unlikely candidates surpass my and their expectations with great academic results and growing self-worth. I finally left as the result of not just the above but also sundry issues and frustrations like seeing a fellow CI leave because he was being treated with contempt by one the uniformed staff (the others were disinclined to intervene) for no reason I or he could discern (I would characterise it as bullying) and seeing one of the best cadets (a great success at training the drill team, top academic results and very understanding and supportive of the newer cadets) being made to leave for a minor misdemeanour.
It also seemed increasingly the case that the uniformed staff didn’t see it as their role to teach or provide transport to Flying/Gliding, that was CI work. Uniformed staff took part in the opening and closing parade then had an hour or so to do what I’m sure was vital and demanding administrative work :wink:

In the circumstances of an unexpected resignation from a workplace I would expect Personnel department to conduct an exit interview, even more so when dealing with hard to recruit unpaid volunteers. That would serve the dual purpose of helping identify reasons for departure, perhaps an issue that required attention with the opportunity to rectify things or, failing that to at least express gratitude for the volunteer’s past contribution. With ATC: nothing. That’s why I have chosen to write something here.

My conclusion is, regrettably, that this is a failing organisation. To be fair perhaps that squadron or wing is a poor example. They and I will remain anonymous.

CI retired.

I completely agree with the majority of your post but I do not think this is a ‘failing organisation’ and in some areas we deliver valuable skills, gold standard training and opportunities of a lifetime. However there is such variation within the Corps that not all experiences will be ideal. Within my Wing alone there are squadrons with a handful of cadets who never show to events and there are squadrons with hundreds who constantly excel. The main cause of this is the staff at a particular unit/sector rather than the whole ethos of the organisation.

There is a lot of red tape but this is to protect you as much as the cadets and it is never going to become any less restricted. Speak to other squadrons. Ask if you can help out and in return they can help you. Collaboration is key and it means staff from other squadrons can help you with AT and staff from your squadron can help with ranges etc. therefore encompassing the whole cadet experience.

Regarding the issue for travel expenses: Please speak to your chain of command. It is not your OCs final decision to disqualify you from pay if an event has been cancelled. If they are persistent speak to your WSO, WHQ (Wing ExO – they generally approve pay for activities) followed by RHQ if the situation does not improve. With Corps activities like flying and drill that you mentioned, you are able to claim mileage. Not everyone is incompetent and hopefully you will receive valuable advice if you move up the chain. You are also eligible to claim for pay from your house, to the squadron and then to the subsequent activity on a 1771 as this is not covered on home to duty. There are many fads, not ‘rules’ that people try to enforce. Do you have access to ACPs or Bader? I can send you them if not.

Again, if you do not agree with the staff in your squadron regarding decisions you are well within your rights to pass this up the chain of command. Your views are of no less of value, no matter what rank you may be (although yes, I do know many uniformed staff members who do not believe this is true (these are the people I generally ignore as their ignorant and naive opinion is of no interest to me)).

A CI with your experience and commitment is a very valuable asset to a squadron and therefore the entire Corps. It is a shame that you do not feel appreciated. Please speak to neighbouring squadron (if any) and see if you can transfer your skills to a unit where you feel valued. It is a crying shame the organisation is losing motivated, keen and educated individuals, like you, because some staff lack the people skills required to retain them and at the end of the day it’s only the young people that miss out.

I wish you all the best, whatever avenue you choose.

I agree - there is indeed much variation across the Corps, perhaps because there is insufficient clarity or because commanders lack the support (and audit) of superiors all the way up the chain to correct misunderstandings or inappropriate restrictions. Your navex sound like the worst example of obstructive bum-covering and is the sort of thing which can destroy an organisation.

Your points deserve to be read by those in charge, not as a chance to have a go at specific individuals or squadrons (though they will need to be named) but as an example of a valid experience by a member of staff in the ACO. I am sure that there are hundreds of similar stories that could be told but they will seldom reach the eyes and ears of those with the willingness and ability to make things better.

Unfortunately, an anonymous post on an internet forum is going to do nothing to fix these problems.

If you want to make a difference, send this to your OC, Wg OC, WExO, Rgnl Cmdt and Cmdt AC.

Some of your points smack of not understanding how the world works today. Yes it might have been fine however many years ago to take all those people backpacking for 3 weeks with 1 staff member, but you must admit that is irresponsible?

As said above, sometimes rules exist for a reason. However, in your points about mileage and HTD, I can see why you’re frustrated. You should expect mileage and HTD, as all staff are entitled to, and you certainly shouldn’t have been penalised for attempting half a trip flying instead of getting all the way there.

As posted above, unfortunately there are some in the world who see themselves are more important than they really are, and you’ve fallen foul of it. Rather than resign, take a break and go somewhere else, it might be just what you needed.

MY BOLD

I think what CI-retired has to say will ring true to a lot of other CIs across the Corps. In my personal experience I find CIs continuously crapped upon by the ‘establishment’, whatever their level of input and/or commitment.

Perhaps it isn’t the individual points CI-retired makes that are important, it is the wide scale disillusionment felt across the CI population that is the issue?

thats my view - some of the stuff i recognise, some i don’t. far more important than the specific points what leaps out is the familiar stench of a organisation that treats its people like crap and is deluded enough to actually believe that its doing them a favour by allowing them to give up weekends and weeknights for no reward and not the other way around.

ammusingly, the people who have popped up to say ‘oh no, thats not correct, so you shouldn’t leave…’ think they are countering the points, but in reality they are just amplifying them - that this is a disfunctional organisation riddled with the incompetant, the village Napoleans and the indifferent. thats why CR has been buggered about so much.

I was at a Sqn where a CI, who indeed is a member of this forum, was treated appallingly by two members of adult staff in particular. This CI, an ex RAF regular was distrusted and systematically excluded from activities which for reasons that I and another member of staff were unable to fathom.
This came to a head earlier this year and the CI eventually having lost all confidence in the Sqn (it should be noted that he was consistently one of the best instructors and most diligent and self-sacrificing member’s of staff)decided to leave.
So incensed was I, that I wrote to Wing about this and I myself requested transfer to another Sqn. Clearly this was a concern to the Sqn. A CI leaving seemed OK in their eyes, losing a SNCO was something altogether different and I was aked to reconsider leaving. I did not.
Thankfully, he is now in a far better Sqn; one which engages with its staff, respects the position of the CI and doesn’t treat its CI’s as second class citizens.
Having read the other posts on this thread, do I get the sense that this treating of CI’s is almost endemic to the Corps?
If it is, then what is to be done? Why does such a state of affairs exist? And, perhaps most important, can it be sorted by Sqn staff or because of its nature, is it something that the mighty overlords of Cranwell need to dal with?

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This kind of thing simply should not be allowed to happen. On our squadron we have 75 cadets two officers and one adult SNCO, without CIs our squadron would virtually cease to function in terms of academics, shooting fieldcraft,DofE, sport and probably a few more. As a result our CIs are pretty well treated. This kind of treatment of CIs is, if nothing else incredibly short sighted, we are an organisation that cannot run with uniformed staff alone and therefore can not afford to ill treat them.

it is, and if you want to know where it comes from, listen to the first conversation between a visiting WC/RC and a new CI on a Sqn.

Senior Officer: so X, Flt Lt Bloggs tells me you’re shaping up to be an invaluable member of the team with your ML, SPA, range tickets and privately owned minibus, are you looking to go into uniform?

new CI: no Sir

Senior Officer: ahh… *wanders off…

the cynical might think that the ‘uniform great, non-uniform dross’ attitude was somehow connected to the practice of telling people they have been elevated to the heights of being Commissioned Officers or SNCO’s after a weeks training in foot drill and paperwork. but not me, because i’m not cynical…

I have rewritten this umpteen times to stop it sounding like a 5 page thesis. :pinch:

It’s individuals that ruin it for people. I sympathise because I also had to move Squadrons but not because I felt unwanted but because the OC was not a man manager and couldn’t get his head round confrontation with other staff members resulting in an unpleasant working environment.

But that is it in a nutshell. Many many OC’s are not man managers. No experience, lack of training, simple unpleasant, whatever. I agree the system, our organisation should not allow this but the truth is because of historic measures there’s probably too many to get rid off, including Senior officers at Wing and WSO level that fall into this category. Where do you start?

Having said that our Wing has a great Wing Co and for a while new OC’s have had to work in their Squadron without promotion and some have been moved along to another post if they didn’t cut it. It means many new VRT’s will get at least 2 years in uniform watching, learning and hopefully gaining critical experience before they take post. The new AC ACO is also keen to ensure that the organisation becomes more accountable and professional, (ironic given we are not paid) but it’s gonna be a long haul.
People leave because of people, not the organisation.

[quote=“pEp” post=14150]Unfortunately, an anonymous post on an internet forum is going to do nothing to fix these problems.

If you want to make a difference, send this to your OC, Wg OC, WExO, Rgnl Cmdt and Cmdt AC.[/quote]
While an anonymous post as you say will have no impact, but trying to raise the concerns up the chain will also make no difference. The reason, especially when you get to Wing HQ permanent staff, Region and Cranwell, because they haven’t got the foggiest about CIs, because they will never have had that experience and or all they know are people in uniforms. The attitude of many CFAV on Wing Staff’s is appalling, as the vast majority will have been CIs, although some of the worst offenders, in my experience, are those cadets who went straight from cadet to adult uniform service. I was talking to 2 cadets recently, both decided that the only route is commissioning and it was like I’d smeared poo under their nose when I suggested time as CI, as if it was beneath them. Lord knows where this attitude comes from, but if this attitude exists in ones so young, it explains the attitude shown by older staff and doesn’t bode well for the future.

I recognise Angus’ example of the conversation. I have had a couple of WSO who can’t understand why anyone wouldn’t want to wear a uniform, but they get short shrift from me if they start badgering any of my CIs about going into uniform. I will always advocate that everyone coming in as CFAV does at least 4 years as a CI.

This is one of those comments that comes from someone using modern thinking, when looking at history, and judging things spoken or written about the past with only modern eyes, without considering context.
It is only regarded as irresponsible because we have been brainwashed since the Lyme Bay canoeing incident in 1993. The fact we can’t do things as we did prior to this incident, does mean the Corps has lost a lot of the spontaniety and vibrancy I experienced as a cadet and in my early days as a member of staff. Something which anyone who has only been in the Corps, staff or cadet, from say 1990, probably won’t have experienced and IMO unable to comment on.

[quote=“Racing Stick” post=14201]If it is, then what is to be done? Why does such a state of affairs exist? And, perhaps most important, can it be sorted by Sqn staff or because of its nature, is it something that the mighty overlords of Cranwell need to dal with?[/quote]To be honest, it sounds like poor leadership at the sqn level.

The solution, as far as I can see, is to start treating all staff better and sort out adult recruitment, so that we have a decent pool of staff from which we can actually pull the best leaders rather than just having to make do with anyone who can commit enough time to be an OC.

Can we stop all of this rubbish along the lines of CI vs SNCO vs Officer…

There are muppets at all levels of this organistion and they are not limited or concentrated in any one of the above groups.

There are times when we (uniformed or not) are treated poorly, by the chain of command, MOD staff, whoever. Sometimes people sack it in, sometimes people who should have sacked it in do not.

When people start realising we are all here for the same reason, and that we want to enjoy what we’re doing (service is fine, but if you’re giving up your own time for nothing then you at least want to enjoy it…) and cut out the back stabbing, gossipy rubbish we’ll all be better off.

[quote=“Perry Mason” post=14213]Can we stop all of this rubbish along the lines of CI vs SNCO vs Officer…

There are muppets at all levels of this organistion and they are not limited or concentrated in any one of the above groups…[/quote]

no, they are not - however a throbber CI would have difficulty impairing a Sqn, a throbber SNCO no problem impairing a Sqn, but a throbber Officer, according to his/her rank, would impair (wreck) a Sqn, Wing, Region or indeed Corps.

methinks that addressing the Officer corps - for it is they who set the tone for the rest of the organisation - is far more important than the criteria for selecting CI’s, or indeed training SNCO’s. no Sqn or Wing Cdr ever left because a CI disaproved of his choice of role, lots however, happen the other way around.

[quote=“angus” post=14214][quote=“Perry Mason” post=14213]Can we stop all of this rubbish along the lines of CI vs SNCO vs Officer…

There are muppets at all levels of this organistion and they are not limited or concentrated in any one of the above groups…[/quote]

no, they are not - however a throbber CI would have difficulty impairing a Sqn, a throbber SNCO no problem impairing a Sqn, but a throbber Officer, according to his/her rank, would impair (wreck) a Sqn, Wing, Region or indeed Corps.

methinks that addressing the Officer corps - for it is they who set the tone for the rest of the organisation - is far more important than the criteria for selecting CI’s, or indeed training SNCO’s. no Sqn or Wing Cdr ever left because a CI disaproved of his choice of role, lots however, happen the other way around.[/quote]

I see where you’re coming from, but anyone so inclined to wreck a Sqn can easily do so.

As for addressing the Officer Corps, I would suggest that, that is already underway with the introduction of the OASC process. The RAF (rightly imo) are selecting those who can best serve the corps, but by doing it in their image.

What I would suggest to anyone in CR’s situation is - raise and the address the issues whilst you’re in the ACO.

Ok, you still might end up leaving, at least you stand some chance of invigorating any real change before you go.

CR - I sympathise with you - unfortunately you’re not the first and you certainly won’t be the last person frustrated by the system.

[quote=“noah claypole” post=14215][quote=“angus” post=14214][quote=“Perry Mason” post=14213]Can we stop all of this rubbish along the lines of CI vs SNCO vs Officer…

There are muppets at all levels of this organistion and they are not limited or concentrated in any one of the above groups…[/quote]

no, they are not - however a throbber CI would have difficulty impairing a Sqn, a throbber SNCO no problem impairing a Sqn, but a throbber Officer, according to his/her rank, would impair (wreck) a Sqn, Wing, Region or indeed Corps.

methinks that addressing the Officer corps - for it is they who set the tone for the rest of the organisation - is far more important than the criteria for selecting CI’s, or indeed training SNCO’s. no Sqn or Wing Cdr ever left because a CI disaproved of his choice of role, lots however, happen the other way around.[/quote]

I see where you’re coming from, but anyone so inclined to wreck a Sqn can easily do so.[/quote]
Oh yes anyone and they don’t have to be staff!! I’ve had a few CWC members who tried and failed to bring the sqn down as they had a personal agenda with me, so to say that only Officers have the power to disrupt the organisation is short of the mark. Let’s face it overly ‘enthusiastic’ cadet NCOs or two or three cadet NCOs in-fighting can see a sqn messed up.

The problem faced by Sqn Cdrs is it is a balancing act as you can’t tell people to sling their hook, or sack them unless they do something outrageous. Just because people don’t get on is no reason to out them, as you can’t get on with everyone. Having said that it’s not that easy in the workplace and as you are dealing with people giving their time in the ACO and not employed and or contracted, apart from signing on every 4 years, which isn’t really binding and seems IMO to be one of those hang ups from the forces. The fact that you don’t like someone or they are disruptive is not reason enough to get rid of them, if you tried and they challenged it, you would end up with egg on your face.
I think that in terms of staff, being the CO is IMO less about man management and more like being a parent dealing with childish squabbles and disputes invariablly over something and nothing which just causes grief and people who won’t talk, which creates disharmony. OK you can get some more serious things, but mostly it’s ‘playground’ nonsense and I have had to metaphorically bang a few heads together over the years on the sqn and talk to individuals as their actions and regardless of my own feelings, I’ve been in no position get rid of them.

i was always under the impression that, certainly when it came to CI’s and cadets, Sqn CO’s had the absolute authority to ask/require them to not parade with the Sqn. they didn’t have the authority to throw them out of the ATC, but thats very different to them being allowed to attend a Sqn.

is that not correct?

Is CI (Retired) not TiredOldMan from the previous (archived) forums? There’s a lot of similarities in the style of writing and content (ex-scout and cadet, always organizing things, semi-retired, gentle but wordy criticism of the CoC, how the cadets loved him etc etc etc).

Apologies if your not the same person but the similarity IS striking.