Why do it?

Adult Staff The Staff Mess
21

Well firstly if you had everyone on uniform then that would facilitate flexibility as there would be a lot more uniformed staff. As for retired uniformed staff now that we don’t have idiotic regional commandants making people retire at 55 there is nothing to stop them staying as uniformed staff. (They could retire from commands etc and go back to having a Squadron Role).

If you no longer had the option of being a CI the question of “what’s in it for me” wouldn’t come up s it would just be the norm. Especially if it was coupled with a development system for over 18 cadets.

At present I have 3 staff in uniform and 6 CI’s of those 5 want to go into uniform. At present I’m actually worried about doing that as I will end up losing valuable staff to other Squadrons who’s OC’s don’t develop any staff of their own. (We have a Squadton that hasn’t put someone into uniform in at least 10 years). If all of our staff went into uniform I wouldn’t have that worry over my head.

22

How does being a uniform make people more ‘flexible’? Other than someone can play at being the RAF and issue orders to do things.

Staff don’t have to move to other squadrons, that’s a Wing attitude of some mock notion of development. Of the staff in uniform on my sqn they have all gone elsewhere for a few months just to see a different way of working and come back, of their own doing, as they didn’t see any benefit to driving extra distance to essentially do the same thing. Didn’t go down well with Wing, ho hum.

The question would still get asked, but probably at the outset and I could see staff recruitment being even more difficulty than it is now, as no one can give a definitive answer about personal benefits.

Frankly I’m quite looking forward to hanging up my uniform and becoming a CI.

When we talk about ‘developing’ staff by moving them around, what is people’s experience in their day jobs? Do they move around or do they develop by doing things. I’ve never felt the need to move to develop in my day job, ‘development’ has come by taking on more complex tasks and extra responsibilities. If I’m honest I am always suspicious of people moving job every couple of years for ‘developmental’ purposes. We’ve had a couple here in the past and they are more trouble than they are worth, as they just get to be useful and independent they have left and you’re back to square one. The only reason we have this idea in the Corps is because of narrow-mindedness in the Corps as it’s what tends to happen in the services, ie people being ‘posted’ after couple of years or so, but we are not the services and people’s own lives are invariably fixed to an area, unless THEY move for whatever reason.

23

My point regarding flexibility was in response to you stating that uniformed staff don’t have much, if we had twice as many uniformed staff then there would be more flexibility for those in uniform. (Not sure that’s the best grammar I’ve ever used)

The concept of CI’s when they were first created was of subject matter experts who would just show up on certain nights and teach that specialist subject and then leave. This is not what CI’s do anymore, they are Adj’s & Training Officers and at least one I know was effectively an OC for 6 months. If we have people doing uniformed roles then they should be in uniform.

People who turn up at the door of a uniformed organisation from the true outside world do not expect to become CI’s, it’s people from within who go down that route such as ex-cadets and parents. (In my experience and they seem to do that generally because that’s the route OC’s and Wing Staff direct them down as a development role) Because we now let CI’s do everything they later on don’t see the point of going into uniform. Now if we removed the concept of new CI’s and put everyone into uniform then within 7 years the institutional mindset would have changed.

I must add that I don’t have anything against CI’s some of my best friends are CI’s :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye: But I think the concept is outmoded and that we need to change as an organisation to accept where we are today rather than stay where we were 75 years ago.

24

While many CIs are more than the drop-in instructor that they are often perceived as, there are still some who are that instructor and are more than happy with that. Their skills and expertise is valuable but they may simply not want uniformed role with that associated 12-hour monthly commitment. The role of CI is perfect for them and it works for the organisation as a whole.

If you drive them into uniform you may drive them away. I’m not sure the ACO is in a position to risk losing a significant and valuable resource.

25

As I have said from the beginning I wouldn’t apply this to existing CI’s only to new joiners.

We already have the ability to use sufficiently skilled outside instructors for activities simply by uploading qualifications onto Bader there would be nothing to stop us doing this. Also if we are reforming the organisation in such a large way we could alter the 12 hours rule to include weekend activities, that would equate to one weekend day plus 2 parade nights.

26

i would have to think very hard about whether i was to remain if i was given the choice of ‘uniform or door’ - i have changed from being the Training Officer CI who turns up to everything to being the subject specialist CI who turns up to the things that interest me and i’m needed for.

one of the drivers would be that the ACO is saying to my face that what i do, and the way i do it, isn’t good enough, and i’m afraid that given the number of early mornings, the amount of smoozing, and number of weekends when i’m not with my own kids i put into the ACO, i’d be very tempted to tell them to poke it. i won’t pretend that the absolute mess that HQAC has made of flying, gliding, shooting etc… wouldn’t add a certain degree of ‘and who are you to talk?’ element.

i simply don’t see the problem with having CI’s, and i’d take the view that if the ACO decided it couldn’t manage having a mix of uniformed and non-uniformed staff, then that was very much a failure of thinking within the organisation, not a failure of the concept.

27

Not really relevant: the situation, requirement and pool of potential instructors is an ongoing situation and you will discourage potential valuable instructors and supervisors for whom the CI model is perfect, just to satisfy some vanity project.

Some units aren’t even in a position to refuse civilian assistance in key “uniformed” roles through no fault of their own and it may not even be possible to bar CIs form carrying out those roles if the only realistic option is to shut a unit.

Perhaps wings need to work harder to have more uniformed presence but not at the expense of legitimate CIs. I can see the argument for encouraging those CIs who already otherwise meet the criteria for uniformed staff to make the sideways step into a uniformed role, but not with doing away entirely with the CI as we have it now.

Such instructors would have to be shadowed by uniformed staff as they would not be cleared to work with children within our organisation. We may need to have some way of clearing them ourselves so that they were trusted external instructors and the whole CP thing would be covered. But what would we call these skilled, no-longer-really-outside instructors?

28

As per the above this wouldn’t apply to you at all.

I have never had or known a specialist member of staff rock up and say “I can only do weekends in my specialism” What I have known is members of staff with a specific skill set say “I don’t really do much on a parade night/I haven’t got time for parade nights anymore, from now on I will just do my specialist skill at the weekend”. Now if we reworked the 12 hour rule so that anything you did with cadets counted then this would be all OK role for an experienced uniformed member of staff to fulfil. [quote=“incubus, post:27, topic:2139”]
Such instructors would have to be shadowed by uniformed staff as they would not be cleared to work with children within our organisation. We may need to have some way of clearing them ourselves so that they were trusted external instructors and the whole CP thing would be covered. But what would we call these skilled, no-longer-really-outside instructors?
[/quote]
I fully see your point with this but IF we changed the mindset from “You join and become a CI and then possibly move on to uniformed staff” to “Everyone who joins becomes a uniformed member of staff and here is the step by step process with the exception of Mr Bloggs who is a Mountain Biking Instructor and who can only do Sunday afternoons between 1 and 1:30” then we would effectively reset the system.

CI’s were never supposed to fulfil the role that they do today (A role that they fulfil fantastically) and I honestly believe that we have gotten into the mindset we have now where everyone is pushed into being a CI because the old Groupies made commissioning people so difficult that Squadrons and Wings stopped trying as it was in the too difficult pile. (The same reason so many people went or were pushed SNCO post LASER review).

29

Make uniform compulsory and people who have no desire to get dressed up twice a week and more and they don’t join. Does it mean they aren’t useful people because they have no wish to put a blue suit? Flexibility in a volunteer setting as we are imo means people should be able to volunteer on their own terms, be that in uniform or not and as it fits in with their own lives.

In uniform (if you do it as the book suggests) you lose that degree of personal control. In reality a chat with the OC and things get sorted. When you volunteer as staff you do so initially to help or do things youngsters, unless you have some specific knowledge or practical skill in terms of admin.

I still can’t see the benefit to the organisation overall and more so the cadets, if the Corps’ staff became uniform only. What happens to those who don’t get through the basic courses, but are highly qualified, skilled or knowlegable, but just can’t be bothered with all the faffing that goes with a uniform? Do we say no thanks at the risk of the cadets not getting the benefit of their abilities? What about ex-servicemen/women who after years in uniform don’t want it in a cadet organisation, but are more than willing to give their time and knowledge? I’ve met a number of these and fully respect their position.

The only people to benefit imo are those in uniform who love the faux power they feel comes with it and a rank. I know of a couple of WSO Sqn Ldrs, Wing SNCOs and two local COs who get frustrated as a number of CIs don’t give them the respect they feel they should get, the fact that most staff think they are throbbers passes them by.

30

IMO the people who walk through our door (With the exception of parents) do so because we are a Uniformed Youth Organization, if they didn’t want to be involved in a Uniformed Organization they would pull on their best sandals and wander down to the scouts, but they don’t do that they come to us. Pretty much all of the volunteers we get through the door are interested in going into uniform when they first turn up. (With the exception of parents) They then become CI’s because we as an organization make them and because we have been so short of uniformed staff they are allowed to fulfill pretty much all of the uniformed roles as CI’s and therefore think “What’s the point of going into uniform” and the cycle continues until we don’t have any uniformed staff left. The only way to break this cycle is by doing something drastic and of all of the drastic options this one would be the least damaging to the ACO.

[quote=“Teflon, post:29, topic:2139”]
In uniform (if you do it as the book suggests) you lose that degree of personal control.[/quote]

As I keep saying such a fundamental change would need to look at other issues alongside it including the 12 hour requirement etc.

Surely those are 2 different issues there will be those who can’t get through the basic courses and those who can’t be bothered with them. Having done every course that ATF has to offer if you can’t get through SSIC you are unlikely to be highly skilled or qualified as its a pretty easy to course and certainly below the standard of some of the Cadet courses available. As for those who can’t be bothered with the “faffing” it wouldn’t be seen as such if it was the only option available, it wouldn’t be a chore it would just be.

Surely the people who benefit most by having more uniformed staff are the Cadets? If everyone is in uniform their is more flexibility within the staff team which means that you can do more. At present if you are an OC and your entire staff is you and 4 CI’s you have to be down every night as the uniformed member of staff. You need to be at most of the weekend activities as the Camp Com etc not counting all of the Wing activities that you are expected at. If however as an OC you had 2 more officers and 3 SNCO’s you wouldn’t have to be at absolutely everything, You would be able to delegate things to other people, you would have time to go on courses and get skills or god forbid have a life outside you would actually be able to do MORE for your cadets.

2 Likes
31

I walked through the door because I have a background living within an RAF environment and an interest in aircraft and guns. I was never driven to joing a specifically uniformed organisation and even at the moment being in uniform is more of a nuisance than a benefit (it just happens to be a requirement of my current role)

I actually wanted to be a CI but the OC at the unit I pitched up at suggested uniform. I was “meh” and applied for both so was a CI for about 4 months before getting in to uniform.

I’ve not seen the same clamouring to put on a blue suit straight from the outside world that you seem to have encountered. Perhaps you have more walts in your area! than we do :wink:

32

Maybe I’m just a good salesman :-p

33

[quote=“daws1159, post:30, topic:2139, full:true”]Surely the people who benefit most by having more uniformed staff are the Cadets? If everyone is in uniform their is more flexibility within the staff team which means that you can do more. At present if you are an OC and your entire staff is you and 4 CI’s you have to be down every night as the uniformed member of staff. You need to be at most of the weekend activities as the Camp Com etc not counting all of the Wing activities that you are expected at. If however as an OC you had 2 more officers and 3 SNCO’s you wouldn’t have to be at absolutely everything, You would be able to delegate things to other people, you would have time to go on courses and get skills or god forbid have a life outside you would actually be able to do MORE for your cadets.
[/quote]
Don’t see how the cadets benefit. They don’t care who instructs them or takes them on activities and as a sqn cdr I don’t care either. Why do you need a ‘uniform’ at the squadron on a parade night? The uniform doesn’t bring any magical or superhuman powers. The fact I turn up the majority of nights is nothing to do with a need, it’s because it’s what I do. But if I’ve got something else to do I do it and don’t worry about what’s happening. A couple of weeks back I had 3 staff all CIs open, run things and close up. No dramas, it just turned out I was out with work, and the other uniformed staff got caught at work.

I fail to see how having potentially less staff, means you can do more just because they are in uniform. Just because you can delegate doesn’t free any more time to do other things?

34

After 12 years as a CI, I am still trying to find an answer to that same question. If the only reason to go into uniform is because you can get 28 days pay then you’re in it for the wrong reasons. Some people I know have gone into uniform as it enables them to get an extra allowance of holiday from their employers, which will thus enable them to go on Annual Camp without detriment to their own personal holiday allowance. But other than this why do it??

Well its a personal choice. At a Squadron level you can’t get anything extra from being in uniform that you can’t already get being a CI. First Aid Course, Radio Course, Shooting Courses, Teaching Courses for subjects, you can do all of this as a CI or in Uniform…

How involved you want to be is also down to you… I’m the Sqns Adjutant, I’m an RCO, WI, First Aid Instructor, Radio Instructor, Training officer, I was Junior Cadet trainer, and I’ve been on Summer Camps, Easter Camps, AT Camps and could have gone on overseas camps if I had the time. I am fully involved at the Sqn and the same goes for any of the Staff here, we are a team, we work together and all our opinions are heard… However the buck stops with the OC and he knows that and we know he has the final say… and we respect that, but we’ve be listened to.

If you want to teach drill at the Sqn, yes it is better to come from an NCO, so go do the Sgts course so you know how to do this right… But then again the Sqn has recently gained an ex WO (ATC) whose become a CI and he’s taught the Cadets Banner Drill for the first time as the current adult NCO’s were inexperienced in teaching this subject… yes CI’s can still have an input in parts of drill too…

However… If you have aspirations to go bigger… to help mould the training across the wing, region, corps, or to help to affect matters at a higher level, then in order to get yourself heard it becomes a lot easier when you go into uniform… but not impossible as a CI.

But to Run a Sqn?? If thats your aim?? or to become a Wing Staff Officer?? well yes, you’ll need to go into uniform… but is this a personal benefit?? with all the emails, paperwork, headaches, politics?? probably not…
and I have no aspirations at this time to go down that route…

A Short while ago the corps held the CI’s conference where questions were raised and participants were listened to… I believe we are still awaiting to hear the outcomes from this, and I hope this will address some of the questions raised…

But at the end of the day most of us are here for one thing… whether in uniform or not… and thats volunteering their time to help young people to become better versions of themselves and to give them opportunities that they may not be able to get outside of other youth organisations. And if you’re in the corps for anything else then we don’t need you.

We are a uniformed youth organisation, and we need to have people in uniform because thats the way the system runs. Whether the right people are in those places is another topic entirely… but will I stay a CI for the foreseeable future? … yes… Will I ever go into uniform…?? well thats a question I can’t answer, as the needs of the cadets and the Sqn may change and I may… one day… don the blue… just as many of the friends I have in the Corps have done so and do so on a weekly basis.

But what to tell your Keen CI?? be honest… and if your happy for them to stay a CI and they are happy to be a CI, then don’t push them into something they don’t want to do… it will only put them off… but leave the door open and if they decide that uniform is the way to go then support them as i’m sure you would…

35

Believe me I don’t push people into uniform.

Given thankfully we don’t tend to get the easily led or blatantly stupid as staff, who don’t pick up on how the Corps operates and can assess all on their own how they want to contribute to the Corps.
All of the CIs on my sqn see the crap that gets pushed onto uniform staff, such as expectations to attend things or getting permission not to from another volunteer. As you say the bombardment with emails and so on is no joy. I get less emails some days at work than I do from ATC sources.

I think if the Corps is to continue as a viable organisation it does need to change, but into one that engages with all of its staff on an equal footing and not play them and us. We have a COs meeting and the SNCOs have one, but CIs and other officers nothing. Aren’t they as ‘valued’ as the others? Having been to SNCO meetings years ago it revolved around slagging officers off (some banter some not so) which still seems to be the case and COs meetings are like broken pencils, other than getting together for a chat.

36

Who is “We” in that context? Is this a wing thing?

My wing has wing training days and all staff are invited. That might not be practical in larger wings though - it could be nothing to do with being valued.

37

It is a Wing thing. I raised the idea of an all staff ‘meeting’ several years ago and never bothered since as you’d thought I suggested making ritual sacrifices of kittens.

Every other year the company I work for uses a local school during a school holiday for an all staff event and we’ve had between 400 and 500 all seated in the main hall/gym and used some classrooms for :sleeping: breakout :sleeping: groups :sleeping: :sleeping: So it’s doable, just doesn’t seem to be the will.

38

Our wing has a COs conference and a full wing conference alternate years the COs conference is about 4hrs max to give a quick update to what’s happening in the year.

The wing conference used to be a weekend do with dining in night for new staff (uniformed and CIs) Sunday was a late start and early finish :wink:, I thought it was a good idea got staff talking and meeting each other especially new people putting names to faces.

staff started to complain about it as a waste of a weekend then it was changed to a 1 day event but most don’t turn up then wonder why they don’t know anything or anybody…

At times you can’t win

39

i think perhaps my deepest concern with regards to the argument that having all the staff in uniform is that its based on a very short sighted premise.

i don’t doubt that uniformed staff will, on average, feel more duty bound to attend things that are inconvenient, or don’t interest them, or indeed that they actively dislike than CI’s do - on average. this is great for the organisation because its going to be easier to find staff to things that are, traditionally, more difficult to find volunteers for. however, it ignores the rather obvious consequence that people who feel ‘duty bound’ to attend things they don’t particularly want to attend are more likely to leave…

for uniformed staff, having the option to become a CI is a psycological crutch - perhaps not unlike the ex-smoker who keeps a packet of 10 Lambert & Butler in the glove box 20 years after they gave up smoking - its something they might think about from time to time, but because its there they feel comforted, and don’t actually need to open the packet and toke from the Devils Weed, rather they just take a deep breath and crack on.

take away the emergency packet of fags of re-mustering as a CI and people will be faced with a stark choice: remain as they are, or leave - and more, i think than currently, will decide to leave completely. its not, after all, exactly as if HQAC are fulfilling their side of the deal is it?

for me, as a now semi-detached CI, the response would be to leave - the ACO has through its efforts already made volunteering more expensive, less fun, more faff, less productive, and through its incompetance less worthwhile. any additional aggrevation would competely tip the balance. i’d also take the view that any organisation that went out of its way to get staff to leave when its crying out for staff, with some units effectively paralysed by a lack of staff - uniformed or otherwise - was being lead by an idiot.

2 Likes
40

@big_g and @daws1159

ACP 10 Revision 1.06 re Public Collections, para 12,

1 Like