From another thread. Who actually uses webbing, slings for L98 training, WHTs and LFMT?
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WHTs, . the cadet or adult being tested always wear webbing
LMFT ditto (i take 12 sets to every shoot i attend)
Slings are part of the weapon system so are also always used
However, as RCO , I do not usually wear webbing unless I intend to pass the mantle over to another and fire the rifle
BG
<<<< Who actually uses webbing, slings for L98 training, WHTs and LFMT? >>>>
As per revised ACTO.
https://sharepoint.bader.mod.uk/QM/ACTIs/ACTO%20043.pdf
Training dress:
[quote]Weapon with sling and sight.
Belt order webbing (ie belt, ammunition pouches and shoulder straps) or Cadet Training Vest (CTV).[/quote]
And:
[quote]There is an agreed modified training regime as follows:
a. All cadet training, WHTs and live firing is to be carried out correctly in accordance with References D using webbing when it is available.
b. If webbing is not available cadet training, WHTs and live firing may take place without it but under no circumstances are magazines to be placed in pockets; they should be placed on a clean dry surface.
c. All training and WHTs for CFAVs is to be done with webbing and in accordance with References D.
d. Live firing by CFAVs is to be done with webbing when it is available.[/quote]
(Not all items listed are quoted in this post)
Indeed.
Surely the answer should be “everyone who can get hold of it”
Great. I ask the question from the comment in the thread on year 8 where someone has said they don’t use webbing because it’s ACF.
I wondered how widespread this view was.
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As an RCO, for me, webbing is an expensive option that isn’t necessary for initial training & 25m barrack range firing.
Even with older cadets, the “rifle wobble” when trying to undo/re-secure webbing pouches is something to be watched very closely. There is also a time factor when cadets change over webbing & resize it to fit. Magazines on the ground are very easy to count or check on “live round” status" too.
Whilst necessary, it is also a pain (& extra time) to do webbing checks at start/end of range day.
However, n a “long range,” then often there aren’t any flat (or dry!) surfaces to place magazines on. Also, there is much more personnel movement on that type of range (including match conditions too), so webbing is very good to ensure security of magazines & immediate access.
The ACTO is very clear - If webbing is not available cadet training, WHTs and live firing may take place without it - if it saves a sqn spending £1000 on 10 sets of webbing that aren’t needed, they can buy higher priority kit.
Totally agree with Mike on this. How come we have now changed the method of shooting to include webbing? Okay, soldier, airman, etc, use webbing because it is issued; it is not for cadets or even staff.
It is cumbersome for cadets, and what do cadets actually carry in it? Nothing; they carry personal kit in their own rucksack. When I was serving, my webbing contained everything I needed, becuase it was personal to me, not to be passed to the next shooter on the range.
And then they wonder why the number of cadets (and staff) having the opportunity to shoot or enjoying shooting is getting smaller :huh:
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Method of shooting hasn’t changed, we are actually just doing it how it was supposed to be done.
All CFAV WHTs have to be carried out with webbing, if they are not, then they are not current to train, test or run LFMT.
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Whilst I agree, the use of webbing can slow down a shoot, and that more care must taken to observe the cadet whilst using it.
I think that there is a bit of a trend to Not do it because its too difficult…
The Key here is that it is a sevrice weapon not a target rifle… we cover that with the Air Rifle, No8 and L81,
It is important that wherever possible we use the system as laid down in the Safe system of training, If we avoid using webbing beacuse its faff, takes too much time, cant get it, cant be bothered,
the cadet will never become profficient in its use, so when they do want to go to Frimley or do Junior leaders, or take part in LR exercises that dont just mimic target shooting they will not be able too or certainly not be a proficient as expected to
Likewise it important that any CFAV’s that take part should use at every oportunuity so they are using best practice if they intend to take any courses run by the Satt’s or CTT
When the use of webbing came out, 12 sets of webbing were procurered from stores (and are on inventory) so we have them to use, I cant believe that everyone has to buy them… it doesnt matter if they are in DPM or OG for that matter, so there must be
loads of sets about.
I agree we shouldn’t abandon shoots because webbing avaialable, but it shouldnt be used as a cop out either.
For an Air Force cadet organisation, use of webbing is irrelevant for many activities. For more advanced activities (my son is off to Frimley this weekend), then yes, they should be considered mandatory.
In winter, perhaps you could consider webbing as being unsafe on a range (cold fingers & faffing about); lots of occasions when little Johnny couldn’t fasten up his ammo pouch.
For timings, I reckon on a typical barrack range day, i could run an extra 1 - 2 details if webbing wan’t used.
The logic that all CFAVs have to wear webbing for WHTs, etc, doesn’t really match the ACTO that effectively states a cadet could do all training, WHTs, & LFMT in their cadet career WITHOUT webbing. It has obviously been decreed that even without webbing, such training & LFMT is safe for cadets.
Let’s go the whole hog for competion shooting & have plastic hats + body armour! :evil:
who uses it?
i do…every time I teach and get down to shoot.
i have my own set “acquired” and we have old “osprey” webbing vests we use for training for those Cadets who dont have their own.
i cant see the arguement in it being more difficult or time consuming. it is mentioned it is all part of using a service weapon so why avoid offering the closest to reality experience we can…?
ye si see the argument for not buying it completely but to purposely avoid its use is in my opinion poor diligence against the recommended practise.
as for the sling - why would it not be used? as mentioned it is part of the weapon system thus should be used, much like the sights and dust cover…
Webbing only really slows things down if the firers are unused to it, which isn’t the case if they’ve used it from the start.
Good points all round.
Agreed shoots should run regardless of webbing or no webbing.
At the end of the day webbing is issued for a reason with regular forces, cadets dont really need it.
You can enjoy shooting without webbing.
9 times out of 10 my webbing/chest rig/battle belt only usually has ammo and a few select things, depending on task, everything else goes in the daysack.
Is webbing the same as an assault vest?
Can you do your WHT in as assault Vest?
What happens if Little Jonny turns up in 58 webbing not PLCE?
i don’t see the point of using belt kit when shooting at all, it gets in the way, its something else to fidle with/fight with when you should be thinking about where your rifle is pointing, and and having everyone constantly buggering around with it to get it to fit firstly the 6’2’’ beanpole, then the short fat kid, then the genetic marvel and then skinny dwarf is a complete waste of shooting time.
belt-kit itself isn’t particularly useful stuff to have for cadets - its useless for AT, it can’t be used for ‘we’re going to the RAF Museum for the day, bring a packed lunch and a waterproof - and its a civvies trip’,and it certainly can’t be used as a school/college bag. the money and effort spent getting it, and space spent storing it, is wasted.
so, its a faff, its a waste of resources, its pretty, err… niche and then it’s likely to courage a streak of waltiness - how many, instead of the required belt, yoke and ammo pounches turn up in full airborne webbing with grenade pouches and hippo pad?
the ‘its how the regulars shoot’ excuse holds no water for me - regulars usually shoot in helmets, body armour and having just done an 8 mile battle march, they also fix bayonets, practice throwing grenades and using a GPMG. somehow that bit fell off the ‘proper shooting’ programme, but i’d like to see HQAC’s reaction to it being suggested…
if cadets need to put their magazines somewhere clean and dry while they shoot then there’s a fantastic product widely avilable - its called a plastic bag.
ridiculous rule, and pitifully sad that anyone thinks it brings anything to the experience of a bog-standard 25m shoot.
Like so many things if its required to use it ISSUE IT and get away from this back door acquisition, scrounging, begging whatever you like to call it.
But I think angus is pretty near the mark when he alludes to walting in the weapons instructor fraternity. Also “because the regulars do it” is ridiculous mindset. It seems we pick and choose what the regulars do and included it in what we do as and when it suits to make things more awkward. As I suggest in a different thread we need to remove barriers not bring them in, just to effectively appease wannabes.
WRT to wearing webbing for shooting the cadets couldn’t care less if the regulars do it, all they want to do (if they’re anything like me and my mates when we were cadets) is shoot.
I can pretty much guarantee that those against webbing are WIs who have never used webbing, don’t think slings are required on the range and teach bear minimal lessons to pass the WHT. There is a safe system of training for a reason, and shooting is progressive - 25m, 100m, blank firing. Try running around for a weekend on blank exercises with your ammo in a plastic bag!
The point is, we teach them in webbing, practice them in webbing and they become skilled in using webbing for when it is really needed, which may be years after the initial training.
And if course, any CFAV without webbing for a WHT cannot run a range practice, conduct a WHT or teach a SAAI lesson.
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There is little point in training people in things if they can’t do it due to lack of kit, just in case they might use it later.
How many cadets or staff run around firing blanks on excercise?
As for doing the minium what is the problem in that? We need cadets who feel confident handling and shooting a weapon when they pitch up on a range.
Of course youn run a session without webbing, unless there is something in the webbing that prevents the weapon from operating. The need for webbing is a very, very recent introduction in the general scheme of things and IMO due to people at the top rolling over and being too scared to question the need in case it looks bad on them.
Yes, of course we should use a carrier bag. Open your carrier bags and check for ammunition… No. Just no! We have a safe system in place for shooting and weapons training, so why not use it?! This view will more than likely be from the WI’s who don’t like change and don’t teach to the pam or to the set standard of the SAAI cadre. The problem with this is that the SAAI end up re training and re testing the cadets over and over because they haven’t been taught properly in the first place. The old use of ‘let’s skip using slings, cleaning kits and webbing. Also let’s not bother with following the pam for the lessons and teach what we think is relevant’ people with these kind of views should either give up their tickets (as it is not the correct way to teach and train cadets) or go on a SAAI course and learn the correct way and adapt your knowledge and teach cadets how they should be taught.
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