What’s the official size of the white disk behind the badge on beret for Officer Cadets, as per the amended / current AP1358C?
Anyone out there that’s done IOT/ROIT that’s maybe still got their’s as a souvenir??
Is it actually meant to be markedly bigger than the small coloured disks traditionally worn as trg flt designators behind the airmans’ beret badge?
wilf_san
There is no official size, nor descriptor of make (fabric/plastic). Therefore, feel free to create as large or small as you like. In fact, it could be 0.5mm in diameter. If anyone points it out, remove the badge, point to hidden disk, replace badge and carry on.
Hold on, I didn’t think OCdts RAFVRT wore white disks behind their beret badges!
If that has changed recently, which badge should they be wearing on their beret?
[quote]0202. Hat. Only the service issue No 1 SD hat amy be worn as follws:
a. Officers. Gp Capts and above wear a hat with an embellished patent peak; Wg Cdrs and below have a cloth-covered peak. Officer cadets wear a white band over the black mohair band when attending ATF OIC and will be issued to them on arrive at RAF Cranwell to conform with RAF Regulations.
b. Officer Cadets. Prior to attending ATF, officer cadets are to wear a white disk on No 2 beret behing the cap badge.
…[/quote]
Of course it doesn’t actually state which badge… and what the hell is “No 2 beret”? :ohmy:
Is it the intention that Officer Cadets wear a beret in No 2 uniform instead of a hat? Why not make it clear, and why include that in the section on No1 uniform?
Surely to god they don’t expect officer cadets to wear a beret with No 1s?
In whichever case, surely they should also wear a white disc behind the badge in No 3 uniform - as regular OCdts and UAS are expected to do. So why say “No 2 beret”? :ohmy:
[quote=“Operation Nimrod”]Therefore, feel free to create as large or small as you like[/quote] Hmm, within reason. Therein lies the original question, since by definition it now has to be at least visible from behind the badge.
[quote=“Hendon Chipmunk”]Hold on, I didn’t think OCdts RAFVRT wore white disks behind their beret badges![/quote]It’s fairly-new development, as per the new (and already-updated dress regs) but you’ve raised another angle on this that I hadn’t thought of, namely…
[quote=“Hendon Chipmunk”]If that has changed recently, which badge should they be wearing on their beret?[/quote]Perhaps the reg has been written with an eye a few pages ahead in the script? Maybe it’s actually aimed at the (planned, but not yet enacted) case of uncommissioned OCdts VRT Mk2? Who arguably should wear the airman’s cap-badge, UAS-style…?
[quote=“wdimagineer2b”] b. Officer Cadets. Prior to attending [size=140][color=#ff0000]AFT[/color][/size], officer cadets are to wear a white disk on No 2 beret behing the cap badge.[/quote] :lol: :lol: This is a lovely freudian typo…I can imagine members of the VRT running for cover, but not annually running the bleep test post-OASC (AFT became the RAFFT?)
[quote=“wdimagineer2b”]Of course it doesn’t actually state which badge… and what the hell is “No 2 beret”? :ohmy: Is it the intention that Officer Cadets wear a beret in No 2 uniform instead of a hat? [/quote]See my above re badge-type, and, also, that raises another interpretation from it, that perhaps OCdts VRT are now meant to be wearing berets in No2 dress?
[quote=“wdimagineer2b”]Why not make it clear, and why include that in the section on No1 uniform?
Surely to god they don’t expect officer cadets to wear a beret with No 1s?[/quote]if this were to be the case/intention, it would have a number of historical precidents, most of which have disappeared over time. The most obvious (but largely forgotten) of these being that, originally, the first volunteer officers in the air forces of the Crown were initially forbidden from wearing SD peaks in best blues (I could re-post the thread about the VRT’s successful WW2 battle to bin the forage cap in No1s, but not in this topic, maybe)
[quote=“wdimagineer2b”]In whichever case, surely they should also wear a white disc behind the badge in No 3 uniform - as regular OCdts and UAS are expected[/quote]That I think is the actual intention. But, if it is the case that SD peaks for OCdts VRT have a ‘virtual white mohair’ around them (which is only physically worn at ATF), why would there be a specific need for OCdts to have to wear headgear identifiers in No3 only? That’s why there’s a potential interpretation that can be taken from the revised dress reg to believe that the beret could/should be getting worn in circumstances in addition to just in No3, but of course the minimal take on it is just in No3.
I’m predicting that somebody on ACC’s got an answer to the original post, though.
wilf_san
Having been an Officer Cadet since 1358C came out. I can tell you I wore my peak or forage cap in No2, and wore no white disc in No3. Because I wasn’t issued one. Neither have I ever heard it mentioned out of 1358C.
Oddly, the reference you have to No.2 Beret for Officer Cadets is only mentioned in paragraph 0202. Which actually talks about what hats Officer Cadets wear in No.1 Uniform. But Officer Cadets don’t have No.1 Uniform, as we don’t receive it until after OIC. So the whole reference is a bit pointless.
Then, when we reach para 0210, No.2 Dress. Officer Cadets aren’t mentioned at all.
Don’t worry, the WOs will have discussed this at their conference at the weekend.
[spoiler]Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahha[/spoiler]
Wilf San, the diameter of mine comes in at just less than 6cm (5.8cm to be exact). I’m technically OCdt RAFVR but I imagine they’re the same.
Delightful things they are!
It wouldn’t surprise me if they were done away with shortly for our Officer Cadets.
[quote=“Baldrick” post=1123]Oddly, the reference you have to No.2 Beret for Officer Cadets is only mentioned in paragraph 0202. Which actually talks about what hats Officer Cadets wear in No.1 Uniform. But Officer Cadets don’t have No.1 Uniform, as we don’t receive it until after OIC. So the whole reference is a bit pointless.
Then, when we reach para 0210, No.2 Dress. Officer Cadets aren’t mentioned at all.[/quote]
So typical of the whole document. It’s full of references to other modes of uniform put in the wrong place like that.
By request, I went through the whole thing highlighting and annotating every error I found (including typographical, grammatical, punctuation, &c). I think I’m up to 142 or something…and I’m still happening upon others.
There are some great ones in there where someone has missed a comma and/or added a full stop in the wrong place which entirely changes the letter of the regulation.
I’ve got stacks of time on my hands, I’d almost be tempted to offer to rewrite the whole thing properly. Except that there are too many ambiguous errors in there that would require knowledge of the actual intention - and getting those kind of answers from people would take me decades.
Around 40 pages (so I’m told) of errata have been passed to ATF recently. Hopefully they will crack on with the next amendment and issue it shortly.
Was there a formal CoC reporting mechanism notified for this? I really hope so, and that I just missed it being active. Or was it done independantly at an RWO level?
wilf_san
[quote=“wilf_san” post=1204]Was there a formal CoC reporting mechanism notified for this? I really hope so, and that I just missed it being active. Or was it done independantly at an RWO level?[/quote]The RWO tasked with collating issues handed it directly to TG4.