Please someone take a look at You Tube and Type in Remembrance Parades 2013.
Take a look at The very First video and watch carefully fortheRear of the ATC Band leading the Parade…
What is that at the Back…Surely its not CIin uniform Carrying a Pace stick…I do hope im imagining it.
Quite hard to get a clear image when freezing the video, but the left-hand epaulette certainly has lettering that does look remarkably like 'CIVILIAN INSTRUCTOR." Can’t think of what other option(s) it might be?
Not sure if it is the light, or my eyesight, but it looks to me as if there is even more substantive lettering on the right-hand epaulette?
CI bandmaster, perhaps? There is provision for sneaking uniformed CIs into a band, but this seems unnecessary and ridiculous.
Don’t want to point and name names but this might be 492 Sqn Solihull.
Checked thier website and can’t see anything on there that looks amiss.
Have to agree though, it does look odd. He can’t be part of the band as surely he’d wear a white belt like the rest…??
Another bizarre and strange episode in the life of the ACO!!
[quote=“Racing Stick” post=13610]Don’t want to point and name names but this might be 492 Sqn Solihull.
Checked thier website and can’t see anything on there that looks amiss.
Have to agree though, it does look odd. He can’t be part of the band as surely he’d wear a white belt like the rest…??
Another bizarre and strange episode in the life of the ACO!![/quote]
RacingStick
I can tell you it is not492 Sqn although it is a midlands Based Sqn not too far fromthem…if you check out the You tube page for this video the sqns name is there.
As Far as imaware there is an authority for CIs to wear uniform/Cadet camp badge if playing in Band, but i would saythat
a) he is behind and to side of band and is clearly NOT in the band
b) he iscarrying a Pace stick (Not allowed on Parade anyway)
c) andhardas he may try imsureyoucant get a tuneout of a pace stick.
Looks to be likehe is carrying out a DI or Parade Marshalls duties…
Suprised that theWo(ATC) who is exRAF Regt IC ATC Marching Party has not addressed this prior to the parade.
[quote]CFAV Performing in Cadet Bands
18. On some occasions it may be necessary for CFAV musicians to perform as part of a cadet band. Under these circumstances, for the sake of uniformity
the following dispensations are allowed – but only while CFAVs are formed up within the ranks of a cadet band:
a. RAFVR(T) officers may wear berets and white cotton/nylon gloves
b. CIs may wear clothing similar to that being worn by the cadets (including beret with ATC hat badge) but without any badges or insignia
[/quote]
I would suggest that this is within the spirit of the dress regs, pace stick notwithstanding, however given it’s in the public domain, if the CoC has a problem with it I’m sure we’ll get something covered in green and sticky coming out, and, or, the Sqn Cdr will get something outrageous in his inbox.
I think we need to grow up as a an organisation and concentrate on the real problems and not get side-tracked. There seems to be a “disgusted of Tunbridge Wells” moment whenever something like this is seen.
Something that caught my eye in the last comic was CAC’s latest missive which suggests that the SLT hasn’t been watching what has been happening in the RAF over the last few years and we’ve now almost reached a state of OMG we need to do something. Now that is a problem, that puts a CI with a pace stick in the shade.
Regardless of who is wearing what, the drill is awful, lots out of step.
Is this one of those occasions where people complain of a tour guides English being poor when they themselves cannot speak a word of another language? If my Squadron had a band that could bang out a half decent tune which this Squadron actually did for the most part then I would consider a little out of step being acceptable.
One day my Squadron will have a band. And to be honest if they marched completely in step, chests out shoulders back, and made music like a Les Dawson sketch at the piano I would be far more concerned.
No disrespect to those that like their Squadron’s drill to be unimpeachable but as ghe2 says perhaps we should look at the bigger picture.
BrianK,
If they can play a decent tune or not, it looks awful if they are out of step. We obviously have different standards, I personally think it looks gash if people are out of step.
[quote=“briank” post=13619]Is this one of those occasions where people complain of a tour guides English being poor when they themselves cannot speak a word of another language? If my Squadron had a band that could bang out a half decent tune which this Squadron actually did for the most part then I would consider a little out of step being acceptable.
One day my Squadron will have a band. And to be honest if they marched completely in step, chests out shoulders back, and made music like a Les Dawson sketch at the piano I would be far more concerned.
No disrespect to those that like their Squadron’s drill to be unimpeachable but as ghe2 says perhaps we should look at the bigger picture.[/quote]
No, you represent the Royal Air Force and marching along out of step is poor. If you can’t nail a core activity to a basic standard - how can you consider focusing on band which, I remind you, is an extension of Drill and Ceremonial, not seperate to it.
Then yes we do have different standards. I am not ever going to knock how important drill is as a Corps core activity and yes we do represent the RAF in our blue uniform, however as ghe2 has stated there is a bigger picture. My post was not to say its to be accepted as being good enough! It is simply to say that there is this bigger picture. Who knows, because we cannot tell from that video, the OC Squadron could well have told the RBL Parade Commander about his bands inexperience but was under pressure to have the band as it would be beneficial to the occasion, which it probably was. Without the band the Squadron may well have marched silently in step but at what cost to the occasion?
As a Wing we have a struggling retention and recruitment issue. I appreciate this may not be the case everywhere and I think that the “drill is a fundamental concept and until they are off a standard they shouldn’t represent the Squadron in public” stance is self defeating".
I for one will accept someone being out of step on occasion in their first months and will STILL let them on Remembrance Parades. If you have such a large Squadron you can happily exclude anyone from taking part until they are “good enough” or seriously have the staff and resources to take a group of cadets out of the training syllabus and Squadron schedule to just get their drill up to speed then I think your in a much better position than me.
It’s a balance. Where we drawer the line at that balance, as we say, we seem to have different standards.
Drill is a pill that should be taken daily.
I for one have never marched behind any band or been on any parade in my ATC duties (which would come to fair number) where the step or pace has been maintained, throughout. I also very much doubt that being in step at all times on a large parade with multiple units is the case for the regulars, where you turn up as a mish mash of organisations and get on with it, which is what happens on these sort of parades. As briank says you have cadets and staff come to that of all experience levels taking part. On our Remembrance Parade I had cadets who had been in the Corps 7 weeks and woe betide anyone who had a go at them for being out of step. These cadets were understandably nervous and their parents were justifiably proud of them.
If being out of step or a CI with pace stick are THE MOST important problems here, then things aren’t going too badly. There are as I said far more important things wrong in the Corps.
[quote=“glass half empty 2” post=13626]
If being out of step or a CI with pace stick are THE MOST important problems here, then things aren’t going too badly. There are as I said far more important things wrong in the Corps.[/quote]
Hang on!! These are too far removed aspects. Firstly, the Cadets in our organisation are not Grenadier Guards or, god forbid, Queen’s Colour Sqn. For anyone in the ACO to think so would be dreadfully wrong. They are children. That’s not to sound condescending; it’s fact. If they are out of step then so be it.
CI with a Pace Stick (if that’s what he was/if that’s what it was) is completely wrong. SNCO’s go on a course at ATF Cranwell to allow them permission to carry such a training aid accoutrement (which after all, is all a Pace Stick is). Personally, I think that course is ■■■■■■■■ because you cannot earn the right to carry such a tool and be able to use it properly, in that short space of time. Nevertheless, everything in THIS PARTICULAR incident is wrong. Are there more important things to worry about? Yes, of course. Far more than this. But to think that is a pure pigheaded approach to what is staring us in the face here.
Remove the small things, (the unimportant things if you will) and you have a chance of being able to concentrate on the important things. Get real people. Stop sticking your heads in the sand because they don’t interest you or you think them trivial. Address them at the level you are at, address the things you can and leave the important things for HQAC.
I can’t help agreeing with Racing Stick as well. The officer in charge is marching alongside the main body of the Squadron and a ATC warrant officer with Regiment mudguards is actually leading them behind the banner. First time I have seen that on an official remembrance Parade unless the officer is a Parade Commander and even then is that the right place for him?
The guy with the pace stick is wearing an ATC beret badge and as far as I know civilian instructor (or bandleader) rank slides are not issued or condoned. Even if he was a retired Warrant Officer its a bit off a liberty.
We spent a great deal of our own time preparing uniforms for Remembrance Sunday and verified our layout and organisation in the Parade before we set off. It doesn’t take long and it was important to us we got it right as we were behind the ACF and Sea Cadets and wanted to look as good or better than them in the public eye.
Whereas I do think being out of step is not the issue here officers and staff who have “previous” so to speak should know better. If CI’s are allowed their little idiosyncrasies at the cost of setting a precedence then we do run the risk of having public condemnation like we did 12 months ago with a certain too small No 1 uniform.
the bigger picture
that Parade consists of the best part of 350+ people
at the FRONT is an ATC Band, followed by an ATC Sqn
if you watch the full 4 minutes of that video you will see
ATC Band
ATC Sqn
RBL (Vets and serving/ex-serving personnel)
RBL WS
Sea Cadets
Sea Scouts
Scouts
St Johns
Guides
Cubs
Brownies
Beavers
Rainbows
and given everyone is suddenly a drill pig and DI, take a look at every groups “drill”
NO OTHER GROUP IS MARCHING!!
the RBL come close, but are less formalised, the Sea Cadets are an embarrassment and might as well not bothered and followed the style of the Scouts and just walked along
what image does that Parade offer to the General Public?
the ATC know what they are doing, and they do it well
The ATC are BY FAR the smartest contingent Parading that day and that says a lot for the organisation and this Sqn in particular…
Ok for those in the know there are some questions
Pace stick on a Parade, simply not done
CI in uniform? not often but there are occasions…
my bug bare is the music choice, although “marching” tunes they don’t say “Remembrance Parade” to me.
GHE2 - I am surprised you have never marched behind a parade. Our town Remembrance and Battle of Britain parade has a band and we have had a band for the larger (eg 70 anniversary) parades
Either way each band I have been behind have all adopted a more “military” themed tune than a “generic” marching band ditty…
I don’t think for one minute that we don’t all do this. It’s all part of the ‘banter’.
Public condemnation? I don’t rememeber seeing or hearing evidence that the general public were up in arms, the general public don’t know and don’t care. What we get is due to the wonders of modern technology people in the Corps with too much time on their hands, looking at things that would have stayed local not so many years ago becoming visible to all. What you run the risk of is a total block on reporting/recording things, and therefore not promoting the Corps which isn’t good for the organisation, just in case some bored individual decides to get all Tunbrige Wells.
I just hope people’s houses are made of toughened glass.
[quote=“briank” post=13622]Then yes we do have different standards. I am not ever going to knock how important drill is as a Corps core activity and yes we do represent the RAF in our blue uniform, however as ghe2 has stated there is a bigger picture. My post was not to say its to be accepted as being good enough! It is simply to say that there is this bigger picture. Who knows, because we cannot tell from that video, the OC Squadron could well have told the RBL Parade Commander about his bands inexperience but was under pressure to have the band as it would be beneficial to the occasion, which it probably was. Without the band the Squadron may well have marched silently in step but at what cost to the occasion?
As a Wing we have a struggling retention and recruitment issue. I appreciate this may not be the case everywhere and I think that the “drill is a fundamental concept and until they are off a standard they shouldn’t represent the Squadron in public” stance is self defeating".
I for one will accept someone being out of step on occasion in their first months and will STILL let them on Remembrance Parades. If you have such a large Squadron you can happily exclude anyone from taking part until they are “good enough” or seriously have the staff and resources to take a group of cadets out of the training syllabus and Squadron schedule to just get their drill up to speed then I think your in a much better position than me.
It’s a balance. Where we drawer the line at that balance, as we say, we seem to have different standards.[/quote]
Apologies, my post written short of time and therefore in short, may not have been as clear as I’d have liked. I do not advocate stopping cadets appearing in public, at any time. I have cadet(s) who, due to either medical condition or sheer biffery, cannot march worth a dime. I’m sure we all have one or two. I would never dream of recommending stopping them representing the ATC, at Rememberance Day. I do, indeed, have the luck to have enough staff to mentor them where required.
My post was seeking to address only your comment that parts of the parade being out of step is acceptable. This is a comment I disagree with. Fortunately or unfortunately, I’m a black and white kind of person, so that comment doesn’t sit well with me! I appreciate nonetheless, the difficulties some Sqn’s have with staff and cadet recruitment and retention. We must all do our best with what we have, and I apologise if I suggested you weren’t, as I’m sure that’s not the case.
As above, anyway, that’s not the issue of the thread and the CI with the pace stick needs hitting with it!
Racing Stick is absolutely right.
HQAC will NEVER be able to solve all of the ills that this organisation has managed to build up over the years, nor should we expect them to. Our HQ, any HQ for that matter, should be there primarily for policy and strategic planning and they cannot do that if they are constantly bogged down with the trivia and pointless rubbish that gets generated. Even a Regular Force HQ would not be expected to deal with some of the issues that we see on here.
I heard a good expression a while ago to describe Regions, Wings and Squadrons; Units under command, but not under command. In short, they do exactly as they please and that’s what creates the mountain of additional work at HQAC (and elsewhere) to put right what our ‘feral’ CFAVs undertake with seemingly regular monotony and at the moment, impunity, as we have seen recently on the ‘SNCO’s Daughter’ thread.
It is up to the coalface to get it’s act in order and do what it should, not what it thinks it should. Squadrons and Wings are not the personal playthings of the appointed commanders who then feel they have a God-given right to make up their own rules. Higher formations need to grow pairs and actually start taking people to task over things, not ignoring these issues or expect HQAC to step in.
But wait, we’re talking about volunteers here and we wouldn’t want to upset them.
We seem to have an agreement of sorts (except ghe2 of course) that whilst it would have been better if they had been in step the drill standard is not of a great issue. I do agree with ghe2 on the fact that as an organisation we shouldn’t be condemning on line at a drop of a hat images and videos as we see here, however that wasn’t the original posters intent. However when I mentioned public condemnation I did mean just that. This is a public forum, as are many others where that video and other pictures of the ill fitting no 1 uniform were posted. Therefore it was condemned in public. I don’t mean “THE” general public.
I do agree with ghe2 that all of these little public “debates” over standards will keep pushing HQ AC to the point where they will make it quite clear that Squadrons shouldn’t upload videos or pictures to the internet unless they are cleared to do so first and as he says will have an adverse effect on the Corps.
On that note though I also thinks its healthy as a Corps we do discuss various elements such as Mr Pace Stick so we know the real feeling behind it so that we can ensure if there are little idiosyncrasies in our own Squadrons we can have the courage and feel justified in doing something about it.
Doesn’t Mitch use the phrase "cadetism’s, (is that where I heard it). This might be one of those where something happened once and was allowed and then re-allowed and again and again and an incoming OC doesn’t want to rock the boat so it is left to continue and spread. Cygnus, Racing Stick et al are totally correct. We should all work together to inform and overcome these issues ourselves without the powers above who are worrying about other things like Gliders going out of service or pay claims being stacked 6 months back having to sort the issue.