Weapon Handling Tests no longer to be Recorded

Everyone Shooting and Marksmanship
1

Anyone able to throw a bit of light on a rumour I’ve heard regarding Weapon Handling Tests and the new 3822.

Apparently with the adoption of the new 3822 weapon handling tests will no longer be recorded in a personal record book just entered into Bader and anytime the cadet goes shooting the Sqn CO just submits a declaration that they have passed.

Anyone know any more ? How do people think this will work in practice on the shop floor?

I can see either cadets not being allowed to shoot as they have no written evidence (or OC doesn’t want to make a decision) or Cadets who shouldn’t be allowed to shoot being permitted. Appreciate that there might be a bit of fine detail to work out but what are peoples thoughts on the matter?

2

Great… so more admin and hassle.

Remind me again what the “admin burden reduction” project actually achieved??!??

3

We’ve been working like this on our side for years.

4

Navy and Army have no green cards, seems to work for them.

5

So what.

As a cadet in the 70s I was taught the .22, .303 and SLR (a bit later) and fired all 3 until I aged out, without ever being tested again. That’s slightly incorrect as the Rock Apes, if there were any around and available, would put us through our paces with the SLR, but that was more for their amusement than anything serious. When I became an RCO I taught cadets the .22 and tested them once and they were never tested again. Similarly with all weapons, until a few years ago, when the brainless got hold of shooting.

This repeated WHT thing is, as far as I can tell is, an OTT Army thing and a total embuggerance wrt shooting. If I know a cadet has been trained and signed off, that’d be good enough for me. It always was before and to the best of my knowledge no one had any indidents. We are told by our shooting officers that the Corps has one of the best safety records and has had for decades.

If a single WHT takes 20 minutes and with 30 cadets to do, that’s someone tied up for 10 hours just doing WHTs per weapon every 6 months. Multiply that by say 30 sqns in a Wing, thats 12½ days just doing WHTs across a Wing on one weapon every 6 months. Increase the time by 5 minutes per test and it becomes nearly 16 days across a Wing every 6 months. The irony is the vast majority will do the test for say 4/5 details every 6 months on .22 and may be one or 2 for L98.

6

As a cadet i find being re-tested every 6 months (especially on the A2) very helpful, especially as i’ve only shot the A2 once and that was straight after my first WHT. As it reiterates all the correct drills.

Now i’ve come up with a good idea, that you need to shoot said weapon every 6 months otherwise you need a re-test. It’ll mean the regular shooters who know what they’re doing dont waste time redoing WHTs, and for less regular shooters it re-iterates the drills.

7

[quote=“glass half empty 2” post=12821]
If a single WHT takes 20 minutes and with 30 cadets to do, that’s someone tied up for 10 hours just doing WHTs per weapon every 6 months. Multiply that by say 30 sqns in a Wing, thats 12½ days just doing WHTs across a Wing on one weapon every 6 months. Increase the time by 5 minutes per test and it becomes nearly 16 days across a Wing every 6 months. The irony is the vast majority will do the test for say 4/5 details every 6 months on .22 and may be one or 2 for L98.[/quote]

I would question that maths. A WHT on the L98A2 should not take 20 minutes. It might take 15 minutes with a new cadet but with experienced cadets you should be able to rattle through it in 10-12 minutes (unless those TMH pins aren’t properly oiled!). You can also take 2 at a time if they know what they are doing. If there are two staff you can easily get it done in under two hours.

A WHT on the No 8 can be done in 2-3 minutes so no problem there.

The test also ensures the cadets are still safe. If they don’t get regular hands on training with the weapon they will forget the skills, and units that cannot store weapons can’t have weapon training every other week.

8

Just because thats how they do it, doesnt mean its better.

Also, ACF tend to WHT everyone before every range practice (or at least some do).

And GHE…

Thats why testing every 6 months is good - if a cadet hardly touches the weapon they will not be fully safe in its handling. I have frequently been in the position of having to test and re-train cadets who simply havent touched the weapon in ages… despite ample opportunity to do so! :mad:

9

We never do that around here.

10

Just because thats how they do it, doesnt mean its better.[/quote]

Doesn’t mean it isn’t better either.

11

The entry in the current logbook counts for practically nothing as it is - there isn’t the detail, you can’t guarantee that it isn’t forged/copied and there is no authentication for the entry.

Exactly the same thing can be said about the electronic record on Bader at the moment. Until there is a method for a WI/SAAI to personally enter the WHT pass for a candidate (from any unit) it relies on somebody else entering the information much of the time.

12

The number of times I’ve failed cadets and staff on a retest tells me that very clearly we do need to WHT every 6 months.
If we don’t bother I can only imagine how poor and potentially dangerous some people’s weapon handling will become.

Yes, if it’s not properly planned out testing can be a pain in the backside. Nothing’s more irritating than finding you’ve got 20 cadets who all need to be retested before they can shoot and barely enough staff or time to do it.
However, I’d rather that than let 20 people who don’t know what they’re doing onto the range.

13

Thats why testing every 6 months is good - if a cadet hardly touches the weapon they will not be fully safe in its handling.[/quote]
But it was never like this and there weren’t any problems reference safety of an individual or in terms of ranges. I fired .303 and or SLR once a year at camp and was never retested, just went to the range and made holes in paper. If there were any problems wrt safety I’m sure something would have happened to change things years ago.

We seem to have this line of thought in the modern world that if you haven’t done something for a while, you are deemed to have forgetten how to do it and are incapable.

14

[quote=“glass half empty 2” post=12834][quote=“Perry Mason” post=12824]

Thats why testing every 6 months is good - if a cadet hardly touches the weapon they will not be fully safe in its handling.[/quote]
But it was never like this and there weren’t any problems reference safety of an individual or in terms of ranges. I fired .303 and or SLR once a year at camp and was never retested, just went to the range and made holes in paper. If there were any problems wrt safety I’m sure something would have happened to change things years ago.
[/quote]

Erm…they did - it was 6 monthly weapon handling tests, RCOs re-assessed every four years and the need for everybody to be qualified, competent and current. Shooting policy and procedures often change due to something happening, not necessarily in the ACO. The are examples a plenty (not just in shooting) where people people have smudged things through because the oversight was not properly applied or wasn’t abled to be applied on the ground. Since going to 6-monthly tests standards certain seamed to have improved.

The shooting parts of the 3822 are pretty useless apart from recording that a cadet has had the initial training. One of the main problems I can see with this system is relying on the assumption that all WHTs are being entered into Bader. Short answer - they’re not. SMS is too clunky, its too time consuming and you can’t extract the info. Those COs you don’t understand shooting will probably go the route of not bothering with any shooting as it will save time and work. Initial Weapon Training is no longer part of the First Class Syllabus as it doesn’t match to BTEC so there is no drive to actually get cadets shooting in the first place.

What I can see happening is a wing or sqn bring in their own document for recording WHTs for cadets (there are a variety already floating around for staff). Then instead of a single format of the 3822 you’ll have 36 of them.

If this idea (I’ve still only heard it as rumour) of a simple card is to work in practice then I think you would need something like your counterpart to the driving license. Make a document that Sqns can print off at sqn extracted from SMS and that way anything that needs to be written on such as a WHT on a range day can be done so. (It also allows you to revoke the WHT if need be)

The other prong to make this work is an update to SMS and creation of a shooting activity type. Make it similar to the Pipe where someone has to log in and tick the box confirming they are IC and then beside each cadet attending have a drop down list of weapon type and tick box for pass/fail. Only the activity IC can tick to confirm the cadet has passed the test. When the activity is marked as complete, SMS automatically updates the individual cadets records.

Have it do the same for staff, then when SATT teams do the same it will cascade from there and you have an auditable chain with less admin. Staff & Cadets can go shooting, there is a physical document for viewing on the range. If it is lost it can be printed off at Sqn showing all the details and Bader is actually updated as well as giving you an audit trail (so people will be compelled to comply).

I think the biggest wrong assumption that seams to be made, at all levels, is that people will do what they are told and what they are meant to do as opposed to thinking a rule is stupid and either ignoring it or making up their own loops holes around it (or half listening to a rule and not using a brain cf. DPM Rank Slides).

15

[quote=“Chief Tech” post=12841][quote=“glass half empty 2” post=12834][quote=“Perry Mason” post=12824]

Thats why testing every 6 months is good - if a cadet hardly touches the weapon they will not be fully safe in its handling.[/quote]
But it was never like this and there weren’t any problems reference safety of an individual or in terms of ranges. I fired .303 and or SLR once a year at camp and was never retested, just went to the range and made holes in paper. If there were any problems wrt safety I’m sure something would have happened to change things years ago.
[/quote]

Erm…they did - it was 6 monthly weapon handling tests, RCOs re-assessed every four years and the need for everybody to be qualified, competent and current.[/quote]
I am referring to years prior to all of this, the 4 yearly RCO re-assessment (I think I did one) was in its infancy when I binned shooting as a qualification (for reasons other than the reassessments) and the WHTs came in later. It is safe to say as an organisation we were doing shooting for longer without all of this, than with. IIRC most of the changes came about when the Army got all snotty about other people doing shooting. I always felt it was change for the sake of change, to force us into line with the Army way, rather than there being a real need within the ACO.

The main factor to consider is has all of this improved the quality and or quantity of the activity and looking at it from a sqn perspective, I don’t believe it has, on either basis. I’ve got cadets who have never shot anything, purely because we don’t have the qualified staff locally or generally or the ranges available in the Wing to do it. We have more people “lose” shooting tickets than gain them in recent years, which is a sad state of affairs. I expect this is mirrored elsewhere in the Corps.

I used to enjoy all elements of shooting, but I feel loathed to give up umpteen weekends to be able to do all that I did before.

16

That depends in a way…

Are they losing them through expiry because they’re considering it too much effort to requalify?
That’s a double edged sword. Certainly, some perfectly good RCOs may expire and not have the time to requal, that is a shame; but also there will be those who simply don’t want to bother putting the time in to maintain skills. In which case, is it so bad to lose them?

Or,
Are they losing them because they’re an RCO/WI who’s had their ticket taken away? In which case they probably weren’t up to the job!
We’ve got far too many bad WIs in the Corps. I’ve seen it with my own eyes on many occasions. Bin them off!

17

[quote=“wdimagineer2b” post=12844]Are they losing them through expiry because they’re considering it too much effort to requalify?
Certainly, some perfectly good RCOs may expire and not have the time to requal, that is a shame; [/quote]
Combination of these.

But it is extremely poor to condemn people who just don’t want to continue. It is afterall their time they give up.

18

Yet they don’t have to Requal… just keep “current” (by passing a WHT which they will know inside out). Sigh.

19

How about a SMS generated report on the WHT state of named cadets on the activity application. Or WI/SAAIs having additional permissions in SMS to add WHTs to cadets they test, so they are then responsible for updating…

Currently when testing from other units, I record the names and email to the OC & Adj accounts the names and my details so SMS can be updated.

20

Guys, I’m tired and just come off night duty. So, it maybe I’m not following this fully at present. (Mitigating circumstances :frowning: )

However, I fail to see how big a problem this appears to be. I’m a SAAI RCO in my Sqn. Every one of my cadets is listed on a board next to my desk. That list replicates a database I hold on computer. I know the current state of every cadet regarding shooting on my Sqn. I sign their 3822 and input details on SMS for every WHT they do. This is then entered accordingly on my board and onto my database.

If and when I arrive at a range and am not the RCO for the day, the RCO will generally ask are all cadets up to date on their WHT’s. My answer, as a WI/SAAI/RCO is regarded as confirmation. If it isn’t then my printed off list is, as is the signature in their 3822. If the WHT is longer to be recorded in the 3822 then maybe SAAI’s will have to record it themselves. Not really that difficult??

I’m unsure whether it was the Army who really caused this problem as some have remarked. And, even if they did, what’s the problem? WHT’s test the safety and competence of the shooters and surely that is a very good thing. Yes, we can moan about having to do it if that is what you want to do. but personally, the safety of everyone on my range is paramount and the over-riding precedence in how I conduct it. Shortcuts with shooting is not an option.