I have a hypothetical question that I dreamt up the other day. It doesn’t relate to me or anyone I know, but I was interested in what would happen:
Say a young commissioned Pilot/Flying Officer from the VR(T) wanted to suddenly join the regulars as an officer. What would happen, given that technically he’s already commissioned?
[quote=“pEp” post=6682]I have a hypothetical question that I dreamt up the other day. It doesn’t relate to me or anyone I know, but I was interested in what would happen:
Say a young commissioned Pilot/Flying Officer from the VR(T) wanted to suddenly join the regulars as an officer. What would happen, given that technically he’s already commissioned?[/quote]
I have always wondered this aswell! what are the rules on this?
[quote=“woodhouse2152” post=6683][quote=“pEp” post=6682]I have a hypothetical question that I dreamt up the other day. It doesn’t relate to me or anyone I know, but I was interested in what would happen:
Say a young commissioned Pilot/Flying Officer from the VR(T) wanted to suddenly join the regulars as an officer. What would happen, given that technically he’s already commissioned?[/quote]
I have always wondered this aswell! what are the rules on this?[/quote]
VTR commission resigned before the start of IOT. No special treatment. (rightly so)
Historically holders of RAFVR Training branch commissions seeking direct entry to the RAuxAF have had to resign their commissions and join as ORs. This I’m directly aware of, and I believe that a similar situation would probably be the case for candidates seeking regular commissioned service as well.
There might be an arguable situation, post-VRT OASC, that selected member of the Training branch could be said to have a pre-selectable status at least equivalent to members of the UAS and DTUS branches of the VR. Or put it another way…selected VRTs seeking regular commissions might be afforded a status above that of a DE.
wilf_san
Happened in our Wg where a VR(T) Fg Off went for a regular commission.
Outcome was he had to resign his VR(T) commission and go through the process to be accepted as a regular officer. He got in and was a Student Officer just like everyone else. He graduated as a Plt Off and my understanding is that he’s now a Flt Lt out in Afghan.
Well that’s much more simple than I thought. Thanks guys 
I know, I was that soldier! I was VR(T) from 1981 to 1984 and had to resign my VR(T) commission before starting at IOT. Obviously, someone’s VR(T) experience (leadership, management etc) will be in their favour during the interview and leadership exercises, but otherwise, no advantages conferred. Of course, in those days we just had the Wing and Region Boards and not the current OASC selection process, but again, having experienced OASC once already for VR(T) will put someone at an advantage when doing it as a prospective Regular.
Oddly, although I kept my VR(T) service number when I became a Regular in 1984, now I’ve become a VR(T) again, they’ve given me a new one!
When I applied to the Navy last year they wouldn’t process my application until they had seen a letter from my Wing Commander agreeing to ‘release me’ as it were. As for what would have happened if I was successful, I don’t know. I didn’t get through the medical.
My 2I/C went into the regular RAF a few years ago.He was “unoffically” I think allowed to go NEP until he graduated from Cranwell. When he knew he had graduated he resigned his RAFVR(T) commission before his RAF one was granted
Just to complicate matters!
[quote]AP3393 Officer Commissioning and Terms of Service wrote:
CHAPTER 5
SECTION 1
TERMS OF SERVICE WHILE UNDER TRAINING
Entrants from Civilian Life
Commissioned Entry
Fg Branch – all university graduates and holders of degree equivalent qualifications.
Ops Spt Branch – All university graduates, holders of degree equivalent qualifications, qualified entrants and entrants with five GCSEs and at least three years’ acceptable experience.
Eng Branch – all university graduates, holder of degree equivalent qualifications and qualified entrants.
Supply Branch – all university graduates, holders of degree equivalent qualifications, qualified entrants and entrants with five GCSEs and at least three years’ acceptable experience.
Admin Branch:
Admin (Sec) – all university graduates, holders of degree equivalent qualifications, qualified entrants and entrants with five GCSEs and at least three years’ acceptable experience.
Admin (Trg) – all entrants.
Admin (Cat) – all university graduates and qualified entrants.
Admin (Phys Ed) – all entrants.
Med Spt Branch – all university graduates.
Legal Branch - all entrants.
Officer Cadet Entry
So …it depends on your branch. If you are joining a branch into which you will commissioned on entry, you would need to resign your RAFVR commission, as you cannot be regular and reserve at the same time.
If you were joining a branch in which you are an Officer Cadet during IOT, you may be able to retain your RAFVR rank (probably substantive Fg Off) …presumably resigning your RAFVR commission once you are appointed to a regular commission.
(a) Did anyone know this, and
(b) I wonder if any eligible candidate has ever asked the question!
Cheers
BTI
c) Who would dare to question DIOT when they say no and laugh at the requester
Further to bti’s comment, I think that the 3393 paras apply to RAFVR and Auggies not VR(T). Both RAFVR and Auggies will have done OASC for commissioning, will have done Reserve Officer IOT and would, I assume, have actually command airmen. It would be interesting to see if things are amended now that VR(T) have to do the same OASC, but I suspect that until Initial Officer Training is changed, things will stay as they are.
I recall that when I was informed that I had been successful at OASC, my letter telling me to report for IOT specifically said that it would be assumed that I had resigned from the VR(T) prior to arrival. However, despite not being a graduate, I was commissioned from the start of IOT.
Don’t forget that VR(T) are RAFVR every bit as much as the former war-appointable General Duties branch, the UAS branch, and DTUS…
Unless another regulation specifically prevents it elsewhere, this applies to VR(T) as much as any other RAFVR or RAuxAF Officer.
Yes, this is certainly the case…but…I’ll be prepared to bet that the regulation quoted is either unamended, post-1997, or inaccurately-drafted. The clear intention is to allow serving commissioned members of the RAF’s active volunteer reserves going into regular service the opportunity to retain rank during IOT, and subsequent seniority. In the vast majority of regulations (certainly if unamended) any references to members of the RAFVR means, as you correctly point-out, usually means the former RAFVR(GD) prior to it’s merger with the RAuxAF (the unified formation now publically branding as RAF Reserves).
Overall, this is a similar form of exclusive inclusiveness that’s usually evident in regulations which refer to RAF Reserve, meaning for all practical purposes the RAFResO and the RAFResA (as we know, obligated ex-regular reserves subject to recall, activated ‘digital’ FTRS, and the MMU)…but not really the remnant RAFVR.
[quote=“bti”]Unless another regulation specifically prevents it elsewhere, this applies to VR(T) as much as any other RAFVR or RAuxAF Officer.[/quote]Didn’t we think that just such exclusions were explicitly-stated somewhere within regs such as AP3392? I’ve a feeling that there may also have been similar such yes-but-no statements within certain advertised job vacancies in the recent past.
Fundamentally- if the intention is to permit suitably-qualified PTVRs to follow a progression that’s of benefit to them and the service, CFAV officers shouldn’t expect to access that same route.
However, a couple of alternative perspectives, some new, some old: Perhaps (but maybe not), with the bar having been raised for brand-new VRT Officers, any seeking regular commissions would be now equalent to ‘retired’ UAS Officers (nb not OCdts), similarly-resigning their RAFVR commissions on entry to IOT, but retaining some level of seniority (cygnus, your experience almost sounds like an old-school discretion version of this)
And some related thoughts (I’ll welcome input from our Army comrades on this)- what was, and now is, the truth behind the semi-mythical route of conversion via which some TA List B Officers serving with the ACF and CCF have managed (apparently, in the past) to become List A Officers, retaining status and at least some seniority? The door on this may now be firmly closed, but I am certain that at one time it did go on, rather than just being an urban legend. (And do the Army still have weird NRPS types of engagements, or is all that now aborbed by FTRS too?)
wilf_san
The army still have NRPS types but they have 3 types of FTRS.
Current NRPS personnel who are eligible to serve on FTRS (HC) may apply through LFEC.
Also a number of NRPS posts has been redesigned as FTRS(HC). So I think they have scrapped NRPS.
The document explains it more in detail: www.army.mod.uk/documents/general/ftrs_din_anxa.doc
Thanks
Woody
As I understand it there are still some NRPS personnel but there will be no new ones. Though as Woody states most NRPS posts have been abolished and replaced with FTRS(HC), mostly in the cadet branch world by redundancies which have royally screwed up the support structure, at least for CCF(A), for now. Essentially they got rid of all the experience in one go and replaced it with a whole load of willing but green (in both senses!) types.
T
[quote=“cygnus maximus” post=6688]I know, I was that soldier! I was VR(T) from 1981 to 1984 and had to resign my VR(T) commission before starting at IOT. Obviously, someone’s VR(T) experience (leadership, management etc) will be in their favour during the interview and leadership exercises, but otherwise, no advantages conferred. Of course, in those days we just had the Wing and Region Boards and not the current OASC selection process, but again, having experienced OASC once already for VR(T) will put someone at an advantage when doing it as a prospective Regular.
Oddly, although I kept my VR(T) service number when I became a Regular in 1984, now I’ve become a VR(T) again, they’ve given me a new one![/quote]
That is odd as your service number is tied to you and no one else one of my mates came to the RAF from the Marines and kept his old number
Likewise. I kept my service number when I was commissioned into the VR(T). The prefix letter simply became the suffix.
A ‘new system’ apparently, I did ask as I’d got rather attached to the old one! All to do with us VR(T)s not being on JPA, so HQAC have to manage their own numbers now.