VGS - Increased Productivity?

Adult Staff The Staff Mess
42

This seems to be going around the houses a bit and comparing a VGS operation and requirements with a BGA one is like comparing apples and oranges.

Lets not focus on Blue only as the OP seems to have become obesessed with and if counting launches lets stop conveniently ignoring all the other flights that happen for GS, AGT, PAX sometime and staff training and currency to be able to bash the VGS’s

I am not saying the VGS system is without fault but there does need to be a level of fairness thats seems to be being overlooked.

As someone who wanted to be an instructor on a VGS but can’t (medical) let me try and add some value with comparison between my experience and going through the BGA route I am now on.

VGS - new Blue group every week requiring H&S and site brief for 10+ (kids and accompanying staff
BGA - visitor will be given a basic brief on where the toilets are and what to expect.

VGS - parachute and egress training for 10 kids plus accompanying staff in case pax flight an option
BGA - breifed on how to put parachute on next to the aircraft before flight.

VGS - Parachutes checked and documention completed they have been checked and supervised
BGA - Member checks when parachute was last packed, last 12 months, and pins look good and takes to aircraft

VGS - either have to do all the ground handling or teach each new group of cadets
BGA - generally only have to deal with small number of new members at any one time and not normally as frequently as twice a week.

VGS - DI aircraft and chack and complete all the paperwork for the aircraft.
BGA - DI aircraft and single date and signature required.

VGS - monthly, quartlerly, annual checks on pilots, staff needing DBS, 1st Aid, climatic injuries, fire training, human factors…
BGA - annual check flight with CFI required

VGS - Medical annually with MO at parent station med centre to standard set by RAF (AP1269) and need to meet PULHEEMS from JSP’s
BGA - Self certify and doctors form that they meet DVLA Class 2 driver medical

Both will do their best to get a 10 minute flight but in most instances it will be two 6 or 7 mins for VGS in the majority of instances

My halcyon days of VGS as a cadet they had about 10 aircraft, still only about 10-12 kids for experience flights in addition to the staff and GS cadets and flew until sunset. There were just a lot more of them then :cry:. One of my favourite flights I watched the sunset twice, first from the cockpit sat on the ground and then again from about 1400ft after leaving home around 7am and getting to the VGS around 0830 a summer day that ended around 2030 and I got home around 2200, now theres duty hours limits for VGS and those include travel to and from the VGS. The BGA clubs can carry on until last landing 30 mins after sunset or everyone has had enough if earlier.

Edited to add if looking at BGA clubs not all are junior frindly either which is something else I have seen regualarly overlooked to support the argument of how much more accessible they are.

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43

But with how little flying there’s been for such a long time, how many advanced cadets are actually out there…?

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44

GS isnt advanced? There are 500 cadets completed through blue/bronze ATP from 1 VGS last year so there is a few

45

We have 2 cadets who have flown more than twice.

And we’re a squadron of 50+…

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46

Agreed, but the first time I went to Syerston there were only 3 of them. The last 3 times I’ve been only 2 of them.
There may be a lot more of them on the books, but 2-3 of them there on the day is poor.

This is not about Blue v GS.
There is the very real opportunity here to seriously increase VGS capacity for both blue and GS, but I know exactly what will happen…NOTHING!
Same old slow starts, same number of slots, same Facebook posts about ‘successful weekends’!

47

no you started by trying to compare the total number of launches and people flown by a BGA club on an average day to the VGS launches for 8 blue cadets only and have repeatedly ignored all the other flying that the VGS may have done that has been pointed out a few times.

48

I’m sure 644 will warmly welcome your supernummary request so that you can help drive change.

49

I suppose it kind of depends what you’re looking for really…

I always love the pictures of our cadets walking out to an aircraft, full flight suit and parachute bigger than they are, helmet on. Briefed that a single item of fod will make the plane explode if it falls out their pockets… I always think of them when I waltz out to my aircraft in the summer in shorts and tshirt with a bag of sandwiches and a bottle of water to sling on the seat next to me.

I guess it depends what we actually want from our VGS/AEF - do we want lengthy scholarships that reward those that show ability to give them the best possible start to an aviation or more specifically raf career, or do we want general air experience a few times a year for all.

Given recent posts about turning the RAFAC back into a pre-training organisation, maybe it is actually our CoC desire for VGS to be more like the ACPS but for gliding, where a select few can get some meaningful training, but this is to the exclusion of others.

If that is the case, then I would like to know. As we can be honest when cadets turn up to squadron. There is the potential for great things, but only if you show aptitude. Otherwise forget it.

We have a bit of a mismatch in what the expectation is from squadron, what VGS can actually provide and possibly even the CoC ideas of what they actually want the role of VGS to be.

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50

I was slightly put off when my son, (who at the time had something in the region of 250 launches, BGA Bronze with X-country) made an application to be a FSC at 644. The CFI was highly impressed and invited him up for the day.
Had a tour, flew the CFI and then had an interview with the OC, only to be told, “I’ve already got too many instructors to keep current, so I won’t be taking any FSC’s on. Goodbye!”

51

So there you’ve identified a training burden at that VGS that you were aware of yet expect them to constantly use all their capacity to carryout GIF flying?

52

I have never said that I expect them to use all their capacity to carry out GIF flying. I know about GS and instructor currency, I’ve been in the business long enough now to know it is a necessity.

To recap the purpose of this thread;
Groundschool and PTT have been removed from VGS’s to make them more productive in flying cadets, (blue, bronze, silver, gold, whatever). How and when will this start happening? What is the plan?

53

Plan? Are you new? :wink: Doubt there’s much of a plan :stuck_out_tongue:

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54

It hasn’t been removed to increase capacity, its removed as an unnecessary blocker to completion of the blue courses.

No two VGSs are the same as each has lost or retained different staff at different levels over the past 7 years and are at varying states of recovery. Therefore there is no one size fits all plan, the OC 2fts intent last year was Blue this year that shifts back to GS where it used to be. The numbers and split of flying 50/30/20 GS/GIF/UT would most ikely be a common level give or take a bit.

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55

I can see where the time goes on a VGS in comparison but using the optimum word “value” how much “value” do the Cadets get out of all the “extra bits” the VGS do?

As a Cadet and now as Staff I rock up to the VGS to get in the air…not for the extra bits.
What benefits do the Cadets see with all these added bits?
A “safer” flight?
Longer in the air?
Shown something “extra” by way of a “military” instructor?

The output is still the same ~20 minutes in the air yet the route to get there is significantly different.
The only real advantage for the Cadet is purely in value in its truest form…financial. there is no additional cost to a GIF against paying the cold hard cash £50-60 for the same outcome via a BGA

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56

Surely the benefits to the RAFAC are huge, having their own FTS and VGS.

Access to all that extra training for staff and cadets. Appreciated it’s not what it used to be!

57

And therein lies the problem. It should be a great resource but a decade of mismanagement at the top has caused untold damage

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58

i corrected that for you.

as @Farmerdan indicates it should be a great resource but isn’t.

and with the loss of VGS numbers and increased catchment for those that remain is there really any access when slots have not increased let alone increased in proportion to the increased catchment

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59

In theory.

And don’t call me Shirley.

60

Not quite sure what everybody was expecting when the number of VGS has been reduced by more than half.

2FTS are still recovering and it will take time for all the remaining VGS to be efficient, taking into consideration having to work within the constraints of the military flying system. The VGS staff I’m sure are as frustrated as some of those posting on this thread.

You simply have to give what we’ve got the opportunity to grow and develop. We’re better off with it than without it……

61

I agree that VGS is better than nothing. But for some squadrons and contingents the reality is that, though no fault of the VGS staff, VGS means nothing.
What we want is to be allowed to use BGA sites, at least until the VGS can redevelop to the point where it can realistically offer gliding to all the cadets.

We’re not even asking for public funds to pay for BGA trips.

I’m fortunate that the school my CCF is based in has recently set up a gliding society. Membership is limited to those pupils in the CCF but it’s a separate organisation. Next month we’ve got two gliding trips set up at the local BGA club. Legally and according to all relevant CCF/RAFAC regs this will not have anything to do with CCF, it’s simply a school trip. But whilst they argument is valid it is also intellectually dishonest and we shouldn’t be reduced to that simply to get air cadets in the air